What I am suggesting is that there should be some means of assessing a project before it becomes even a ClassicPress Research project. We don’t need any votes. This would just be something decided by the Ecosystem team.
In the case of Classic Commerce, to my mind that is the perfect example of a project that has clear potential to add value to CP and there are capable people willing to work on it. This project would be forwarded to the next stage without any question.
What I am against is allowing practically anything to be considered a ClassicPress Research project as in my John Doe example above. Surely there has to be some means of assessing what is a worthy research project. And in my flowchart, all of that would be done by the Ecosystem team.
If the John and Janes Does of this world approach a member of the Ecosystem team and goes “Hey, I’ve got a great idea…” are we supposed to just accept that and create a repo for it?
I think we do have a commitment. We’ve accepted this project acknowledging that it has the potential to add value to CP at some point in the future. Do we not have some responsibility to help that project given that it is potentially in CP’s interest?
I seem to be in the minority here and I can’t see what I’m missing.
Well, to me, that is exactly where the problem lies. I’m suggesting some kind of assessment carried out by me or by the Ecosystem team but everyone else seems to be against that idea.
I understand some developers create their own repos but these are a different kind of project. They are not CP research projects and won’t be officially supported by CP.
What I’m talking about here is how an idea transitions into a CP research project.
OK, well if it helps you and the ecosystem team to have something like this in place for your own use, then go with it. I don’t you need to be worrying too much about what we all think.
At the end of the day it’s your decision. And it’s not like hiring someone for a job, where a year later you might get called up to justify exactly why you chose A over B. I don’t think it’s a big deal, and you can always just say “Sorry, we already have 8 active research projects and we can’t deal with any more. Set it up in your own repo”.
So, I guess we aren’t against the idea… just saying don’t stress about it too much.
But, on the other hand, you do achieve a huge amount, so don’t go changing your style. Getting those ducks in a row seems to be working for you (and us).
Just want to clarify something here as I was invoked above… I’ve been more vocal about keeping my projects separate for two main reasons:
The CC Commerce adoption experience. One guy started it, then the community took it over, then the guy bailed. Or, at least, that’s what it looked like. Basic decisions that should have been made by a lead were then up for mile-long debate. I think back to the logo discussions; which went on far too long, IMO. I get a ton more done when I’m not sidelined by discussion on items that are not in need of discussion. My feeling is that to put any of my plugins into “research” would be to slow down their progress and I’d probably just lose interest like the original guy did.
The fact that my own initials are identical to ClassicPress’ does pose some challenges. It is my desire to make perfectly clear that my work is 3rd party rather than core, particularly given that I had (silently) planned to run for the committee, which might further muddy those waters.
This is actually the best example of something that belongs in ClassicPress-research. The Classic Commerce project was (a) really important to the future of ClassicPress and (b) huge; it could never have been a one-man show.
The fact that the original main instigator dropped out, but it was later taken up by others who have continued on with it, shows the value of having this research arrangement. True, it suffered for a while from not having a lead, and this might well be a condition that Tim decides to apply in future… maybe anything in CP-research needs to have a nominated lead developer.
I think so, especially if there is an associated petition. At least, this is what I have been doing until now. This shouldn’t imply any commitment on the part of ClassicPress until we are ready for it.
No, we have a responsibility to do what we can to move CP forward with limited resources. So far, with research plugins, that has meant giving people a sandbox to play in, and more recently providing a way for these sandbox/research projects to advance into something more official if and when they are ready. Some really good things have come out of this process and I think there will be more in the future. Not all research projects will advance into something more official and this is totally fine.
This is exactly the point of the research plugin process, and the reason why we shouldn’t make any changes to that arrangement.
Where the Ecosystem team should come in is when we are ready to decide “hey, this is pretty good, and lots of people are interested in it, it just needs a bit of polish/maintenance to be production ready”.
I don’t think any of the 3 research projects I mentioned above are in this situation right now, but they might be one day (I’d like to work on custom fields after v2 is out for example). We also don’t know ahead of time which research projects are going to end up having value.
I would revise that slightly: One guy started it, he bailed, and then others took over. We are now in the process of finding a more clear and official place for CC and other similar projects, which is a good thing, but that didn’t have to happen right out of the gate with our first major project.
@anon71687268 you are one of our most prolific plugin developers, and you’ve proven that you have the skill and initiative to develop and maintain multiple plugins under your own name. I think the research plugin setup is intended for people with less commitment than that.
Discourse says that triple-posting is bad but here we go…
This seems to be the main point of confusion. I would revise this as follows:
The Ecosystem lead should decide when a plugin is ready to graduate from ClassicPress-research to an officially supported plugin.
Giving people an informal sandbox to play in has been successful so far, and the logical next step in that success is letting projects “graduate” from the sandbox if and when they become ready. Let’s not change the parts of this setup that have already been working well…
As is, I think, generally agreed, the whole concept of research has not been well defined and I’ve never understood how an idea becomes a research project. I was merely suggesting a way of formalising that.
Classic Commerce and Classic SEO, as ClassicPress Research projects, have benefited enormously from CP support.
This differs from what was voted on by the committee and what has already been agreed:
I think there are many points of confusion.
But can I just make a few things clear:
I suggested some form of vetting process because the definition of what is a research project has always been vague at best.
In suggesting there be some kind of vetting process, I was aiming to adhere to CP’s policy of openness and transparency.
If the consensus is that there should be no vetting of ideas before they become research project, I’m perfectly OK with that.
If I have any doubts about anything, I will consult with fellow team leaders.
So can we put all of the above behind us and move on???
Ok. I stopped reading at 20something.
34 is a tad too much.
Sorry but here I will think “out of the box”
Research is an incubator.
Sure we need to feel that what goes in there has value and this is the reason @1stepforward was chosen as ecosys team lead. Because he sees the bigger picture (has to do with the ducks in a row etc).
Then, not every plugin will develop the same. At present CP can help only by allowing people a desk to work on. An infrastructure. But the lifting should be done by the people who find an interest.
Now think, if there is no incubator, no desk… Even if people have an idea this will not develop.
The desk represents the fact that we welcome people who are rolling up sleeves, that everybody is allowed to be bold.
A way to know if something goes into research? A way to avoid sellers of ideas?
Well
is that something that long-term can serve CP to grow?
has the person done something? Is the thing started? Or are they willing to enter research to see the idea worked on by others?
And, in case they have the idea and not the means to make it happen, where can you direct them? Petitions are for ideas, research is for doers.
If someone is a real doer but is a newby, you can direct him to study and prepare to develop the thing on his own and come back when he has at least a “working” prototype on his own. Because a doer who invests time in preparing this and submitting again for evaluation has some potential and is worth teaching.
Today, I was hoping to be able to say yes, go ahead. To me, this project has clear potential for adding value to ClassicPress and you have an excellent track record already. I’d have had no hesitation in moving this forward.
So from my perspective, all systems are go but…all of the ducks aren’t quite in a row just yet.
That’s how I tend to look at it too. I’ve worked with a couple of incubator companies in a former life and they offer great value. One particular project I was involved in on the periphery went on to become a global success.
Thank you Elisabetta. That means a lot too.
I think I’ve said all I’m going to say so bye for now.
James and I have been giving further thought to how best to manage the research plugins and we’ve agreed that, while the Ecosystem Team will manage the transition from research to official plugin, James will continue to manage the research repository but as part of the Ecosystem Team. Responsibility for deciding when a project is suitable for transition will remain with the Ecosystem Team Lead.
I’ve been following this discussion, and wanted to add this. I’m not really sure what the benefits really are for a plugin to be a research plugin compared to developer having their own GitHub repo. This should probably be outlined on a dedicated page/docs for research plugins to help developers understand what the benefits are and process for approval.
There are considerable differences but maybe up until now, the distinction has been blurred a little. James is going to be putting together a document that explains what ClassicPress Research is all about.
In a nutshell, the research programme is all about providing a place for developers to experiment and to create and nurture their ideas. Some of these ideas may not go anywhere and get abandoned and others could become full blown projects but just not suitable for ClassicPress. Ultimately what we want to achieve is to encourage developers to create “something” that has the potential to add value to ClassicPress.
As this is a crucial part of the ClassicPress Ecosystem, it’s something that both James and I will be working on together. James will be managing the research programme on a day to day basis whereas I will be watching the programme looking for projects that I consider to be ready to become officially supported ClassicPress projects.
Classic Commerce and Classic SEO are still technically considered research projects but we have created a new home for projects that are officially supported by ClassicPress. Both of these projects will be moving there in due course.
Hope this clarifies things a little. As I say, James will be producing a more detailed and definitive document.
or 
(you don’t need to put on a toga before giving your decision).
but…all of the ducks aren’t quite in a row just yet.