[Community Poll] The Future of ClassicPress

Governance Votes
64

Good ideology, and so CP may want to stay “where it is” and not worry about new filters/hooks (use old functions/methods like how WP migrated use of ‘get_usermeta()’ [1/many examples]. WP 4.9 commands and functions (to incld. REST) SHOULD stay with older stuff. (see Mission of CP comment next.)

This->would be most important before even deciding on the answer to this thread! Should CP only be concerned about security fixes and PHP compatibility BEFORE it updates any cool stuff from 5.0+ core?

As @joyously and others mentioned of how many scripting languages there are to keep up with… this alone should be a task for heroes and heroines. Don’t try to keep up with the Jones. Just keep up with tech and security.

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65

Wow… interesting and somewhat strange discussion. I must admit when I read path one I thought the same as Tim:

There are actually a number of possible plugins that do the job nicely and that is what I am doing for all my sites. Why would I want to use a CP based on WP6 when I can just use WP6?

I suggest that before you start thinking about what path to take, it might be more advantageous to ask yourselves where you want to end up. It is customary to leave choosing a path until after you have some destination clearly in mind. But then, that’s the problem with CP - it never really knew where it was going, beyond “WP-without-Gutenberg”. So, it means you get statements like this listed as a con for one of the options: “We won’t be able to catch up with WordPress”.

The conversations here mirror what I have always observed in computerland - there are basically two sorts of people. One group just wants stuff to work, and keep working and ideally not require any thinking about at all. The other group likes shiny new things and wants to see constant evolution - if something isn’t changing on a weekly basis then it is “stalled” or possibly even “dead” (of course you need this second group, otherwise you wouldn’t be able to sell new iPhones every year).

When I was contributing to CP I always thought that the ambitions greatly outweighed the available resources. I occasionally suggested a drastic pruning back of the project, but this was always met with widespread disapproval. I still think that if CP is going to survive at all (and I very much doubt it) then you will need to define a narrower subset of users and focus your limited efforts on catering to them. Personally, I would be aiming for the first group mentioned above, as they are the ones who are most disadvantaged by the changes, and the least interested in them.

Well, I am not expecting any different reactions to my suggestion, so won’t go into any more details. But I do think you should first try to work out what CP wants to be, before you start looking for any specific paths. I get the impression that there are a lot of different views here about that.

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66

Isn’t even the current filter/action thingy that disables gutenberg a grace-period kind of thing with the vague promise to keep it around for now?
Plugins removing Gutenberg for WP won’t last forever I’m sure. When WP and themes start relying on blocks too much there won’t be any escaping it.

Keep that in mind as well…

Plus on a lesser note, WooCommerce is turning into a weird thing, everything I click its dashboard on my test site I’m more and more frustrated by all the bloaty nonsense and reshuffling of menus and pointless crap. Surely there are more people who think along those lines that just want to sell stuff without caring what WooCommerce is up to in the background.

3 Likes
67

if this project doesn’t care about the new performance stuff (that are developed mainly by Google contributors to the WP and this community don’t understand that there is a reason behind it)

Lean has the future, also for Google. CP is leaner than Gutenberg, as far as I know. That aspect will appeal to the masses. Large new datacenters have become subject of political discussion, at least in Western Europe. It will not only be a climate/goodwill matter, but also an energy-efficiency/market-growth one for large corporations, in the near future and it already is. On top of that I find Gutenberg user UNfriendly compared to CP. Two topics to bring to the market.

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68

This would be WHAT to add to CP if we took route one (Refork 6+ performance goodies (only?)).

But there would be other goodies to grab from 6+ as it evolves. Very interesting conversation and I hope it has a very altruistic resolve as compared to anything too ‘opinionated’ towards what-parts-to-include. What I mean by this is, to keep performance on the front burner and maybe see/learn from other (Google) devs as to what they think as well. Maybe expand a bit outside the direct WP environment community and take baby steps so they are the right steps to take without losing sight of the future and CP being the “old” WP that works just as well as the new (without the JSON and dependencies WP employs).

There is no reason why we need to “fork” WP post-GB if we have a method to incorporate any new performance and scripting language (PHP vers.) into the current fork… dare say in the form of a plugin maybe.

Focus on HOW we would make CP performance and scripting language compatible and then build the thing. Discussion on whether or not to do A or B may not be half as productive as discussing how to implement B and then if it is not realistic in its goals and results; back to A.

But truly I think leaving CP as-is with PHP compats would ride well.

1 Like
69

fact is that we can’t keep up with standards (we could implement PHP8 and very late only because we backported from WP) and an outdated piece of software doesn’t attract users.
as of now CP is not able to stay at 1.5 and go its slow pace because everyone is evolving, PHP8.1 is already there but we are behind. And we need to update jquery and add some things that will enhance performance making CP more usable and convincing even more people that it is stable enough and reliable to be used in production sites.
we could do this on our own if we had tons of people involved in developing the core, and we wouldn’t need wp.
the re-fork thing is meant to make a clean start, not to become wp.
it’s a “reset point” what do we want to keep from WP6? surely the PHP compatibility, the performance updates, the security updates, the libraries that got updated and we missed because we are understaffed. what we don’t want? blocks, fse and the yadda yadda coming in with them.
we clean it, then we backport eventually the things we improved in CP versus WP (it is proven that a CP site is leaner and faster compared to an exact same wp replica of it, so we have surely done something right). The fork is just a way to bring CP afloat again.
Then IMHO we can discuss what to do for the future, when we have a more solid base to work on. and we can have a plan to slowly diverge from wp and stand on our own with our own userbase, by setting SMART goals (specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, time bound goals, that is).

70

See you in 2 (ish) years when CP is again behind with a small team and the discussion to re-spoon WP 8 or 9 comes up.
Not saying you guys shouldn’t do the re-fork per-se but it too requires people, a team, a decision, and it solves nothing in the long run.

If you look at it that way it may just be more sensible to update CP to work with PHP8.1 - Is that really so hard? Follow and resolve errors until it works… Don’t fix what ain’t broken. I’m not overly familiar with core development but still chasing errors in plugins is kinda the same… Never takes that long to patch up methods and such and perhaps re-do or update code to better suit modern needs along the way.

Same for jQuery, it works fine as-is for now. A minor(ish) update as a drop-in replacement takes little time I think since no major version change occurs. A proper update can be done later on. Not a real priority,

And as long as CP works reliably, normies won’t know CP is a bit behind on whatever. Because it works. They don’t know code or simply don’t care, so whatever for that. Just look at ignorant so many WP users can be for development/code/quality of plugin and whatever… If it works for them, that’s all they care about.

1 Like
71

I thought ClassicPress was a response to the dictatorial regime imposed by the top management of WordPress. If it was really so, it should have no dependencies with the dictators.
Until it has dependencies with WordPress, it will always have problems. If this is what you want, continue on the same way, but change the name and call it SlavePress.

No matter if it is a lot of work, the options that I see are two: really fork it (change wp_ with cp_, disconnect the plugins directory, disconnect everytthing), or kill this project. No matter there are not enough plugins. You start with fewer plugins. You start with very simple websites, and then the CMS will grow. You can’t start with the same level of WordPress. You have to start little and become bigger.
If you try to start big, you don’t start. ClassicPress is not started yet.
I don’t see any leadership here. Lots of talks and little substance.

WordPress has success because is led by someone. A discutible leadership that I don’t like, but it has it.
ClassicPress has people who discuss how to do things, but after so many years it looks like the status is always similar. The number of contributors is not really the problem here, it’s a matter of missing leadership.
The real fork had to be done years ago, but if you want to continue with this project, you need to do it right now. If you do it now it will require years but it will be a great project, if you don’t do it, in some years this project will die or will continue to live death as it is now.

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72

Actually, that’s a big problem. Can someone be a leader if there is nobody to lead? Contributors are the ones getting work done. Without contributors nothing will get done.

The main problem is that CP community isn’t that small, there’s a lot of users. But 99% of users have a lot to say but no willingness/ability to help get sh*t done.

A lot of users over the past 4 years wanted CP to be separate from WP, yet 3-5 users actually contribute to the core development.

I saw someone on Twitter complain that it took us too long to get PHP 8.0 support, yet I haven’t seen that person contribute to CP anything.

This is the nature of open source. But it’s more visible on a smaller scale, with a smaller user base.

This is also why we went away from petitions and fully democratic process. People want things, but are not willing (or able) to help get it done.

So people getting work done are the ones who end up making the decisions.

Fully democratic process and committees hurt CP in the early years, drove people away from the project. This is why we are where we are today.

The few people that contribute are basically working part-time jobs for free. This isn’t sustainable, they will burn out eventually.

Either path, 1 or 2, requires contributors to do the work. Lots of people commented, only 2-3 will contribute most likely.

Note: Core development isn’t the only work that needs to be done. Non-coders can contribute too. Documentation, translations, forum moderating, system administration managing infrastructure, writing blog posts, etc. Everyone can contribute regardless of skill, if they’re willing to.

:man_shrugging:

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73

Either path, 1 or 2, requires contributors to do the work. Lots of people commented, only 2-3 will contribute most likely.

ClassicPress is a mess, this is what it is. It’s since a couple of years since I try to upload some plugins to CP. Still not possible. My way to help could be submitting my plugins, but this was very difficult for me, and now after some years, it’s still difficult.
You think there are not enough developers because the system is a mess and without solid leadership. With the same developers after so many years, the result was different.
If you need developers you should collaborate with big companies like Elementor, Divi, WPBakery, and so on. They would have a lot of interest in making ClassicPress great, and I’m sure one of these big companies would invest money and time in their developers.

It seems that the developers of CP are working like hamsters without a guide. And now after all this time still debating whether to break away from WordPress? Please. Of course, you miss developers, they work without a clear goal.
CP needs leaders. Once it has leaders, those leaders will look for developers if they are not enough.

3 Likes
74

I agree, it has been difficult. That’s why we’ve been working on a new, CP-powered directory for plugins/themes which we will launch soon. If you’d like to submit your plugins, please PM me and I will provide additional details. You can read about directory requirements for plugins here.

We tried over the years. It’s difficult to convince developers to work for free especially when CP user base isn’t as big as WordPress. It’s hard to make it economically appealing to developers to contribute, and we don’t have a budget to pay them. It’s a catch-22. Not enough users means not enough developers will be interested, and not enough developers means not enough users will be interested.

1 Like
75

Developers don’t like to work for free, nobody wants to work for free, but money is not the only way to pay someone. The currency may be popularity, marketing, or whatever appeals to the developers, including money.
What can CP offer to developers and big companies? Are you sure it has nothing to offer? In a so kind of situation where a lot of people hate Gutenberg since it appeared for the first time, do you think CP has nothing to offer? Do you really think big companies behind page builders are not interested in investing in CP? What happens when Gutenberg will replace the page builders? Will big companies behind page builders passively watch the end of their business? Don’t you think they might be interested in having an alternative like CP?
For me, it is absurd to see all this wasted potential. We’re talking about the alternative to Gutenberg that is hated by at least half of WP users, and you tell me there aren’t the resources? The resources are there, but they are not gathered. Maybe we should go out from the fantastic world of democracy and ask the collaboration from big companies. Prepare a contract to ensure a minimum of democracy and avoid the tyranny of those companies, but then start working with them. I don’t see many other ways.
Many people want something like CP, but if all these forces are not collected and led by someone, they will never work efficiently.
And I would not start with a dream. Having something that works like WP now is a dream. The first little step for me should be a real fork, having a CMS for very simple websites, and then from there continue growing, attracting theme and plugin developers, and contributors.
At the moment, for me, but I think also for many others, it’s lost time if I contribute to something that I’m not sure about. At the moment it’s not so easy to trust this project I would prefer to see little, but effective steps. When the step is too big, you fall.

Thank you for offering me the details about how to upload my plugins. But sorry if I say that, for me this is absurd. You should share one single link, and then I should be able to upload my plugins without issues, and without PMs. You can manage it via PM if you have something that involves a couple of people, not something that claims it’s an alternative to WP.
First, the system, the structure, and then you fill the system with plugins, themes, documentation, or whatever. For me, CP at the moment hasn’t had solid foundations. This is the cause of all the problems. The scarcity of developers is a consequence of the main issue, not the root cause of the issue. Why are there a lot of developers who work free for WP and not for CP? And at the same time, it looks like more people hate Gutenberg than those who love it. Surely there is a reason, and this reason for me it’s missing leadership and the presumption of starting already grown up.

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76

New directory is not public yet, it’s currently in beta as we iron out bugs. If you want to participate now, you can PM me for details. Otherwise, you can wait for it to be launched publicly to list your plugins.

77

I had a number of private discussions with many of the major contributors over the years… all of them now gone. I can tell you lack of leadership was always a common complaint and one of the main reasons they gave up on CP. Strong leadership will draw people in and generate loyalty.

I actually think the whole “community-led” idea was a big mistake. In an effort to avoid the dictatorial style of WP we went to the opposite extreme and said that the community would somehow work it out for themselves. This resulted in a lot of discussion, after which either nothing would happen at all, or else random people would go off in various directions doing things they thought were important until they got discouraged and gave up. This is a perfect description:

To me working on CP was like polishing the brass on a rudderless ship, drifting around in the ocean without a captain… you end up thinking “why bother”?

This is exactly what I have been saying for years. Pull the plug on WP. Focus on the ecosystem.

78

Me thinks this discussion is drifting out of scope.
And I would like to know when the poll results are due.

With all due respect for people complaining there’s no leader… Have you tried to be one? Me when there was something that wasn’t convincing me I knocked into doors. Maybe I was harsh. Maybe rude. But now we have a committed leadership that is doing something and I am willing to be there and help.

Taking the old structure and reforming it isn’t easy. They are preparing the releases, all the while trying to understand and reform the structure of the assets (that was decentralized and did not allow an asset management that is suitable with the project) and they are also working on the new dir that’s going to be released soon (that is now in testing stage).

And they managed php8 compatibility in all this.

I am still on the sidelines, I took this year to learn a bit more of programming. I might not become a core dev, that takes year of expertise, but I understand things better now and I can surely find a place to help when the time comes.

Being frustrated is totally allowed, but instead of complaining and do nothing please submit your plugins to the beta directory. Help us to test it and be really ready for release, this is very important as you noted in your previous post. And your contribution might shorten the time it takes to officially release it.

2 Likes
79

If we don’t get any new votes (31 now) in the next few days, I’ll close the poll. I want to make sure everyone had a chance to vote. We’re not in a rush.

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80

They’re slighty different, because they both use the same package managing system and a kernel that can (more or less) easily changed out. But also, Linux (and Unix in general) is all about modularity, and the underlying philosophy is more like: make a tool that is doing ONE job, but this one REALLY REALLY good.

Thats what WP would like to be, but with trying to add everything but the kitchen sink to the core, its never gonna happen. Its the exact opposite philosophy.

cu, w0lf.

ps: I’ve been using Linux as my primary OS since 2007, first starting with SuSE Linux 9, next Ubuntu, currently on Kubuntu LTS.

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81

I’m just a regular user of CP and here are some of my thoughts:

  1. There is definitely wasted potential. There’s no way to deny that. But we are talking about the future. So let’s set this aside.
  2. To me, path 1 is clearly the way ahead. There will be a lot of improvements that we can inherit for free. Yes. We can do this ourselves. But why don’t we use our limited resources for something else? :man_shrugging:t2: This path is highly beneficial if people want CP to not depend on WP anymore since there will be much work ahead.
  3. Some people here think that if we fork WP 6, then we will fork WP 7, WP 8, etc. Well, this is assuming that we don’t learn anything from the past. And if that’s the case, then we deserve to be failed. :joy:

One day in the future, Gutenberg will fully merge into the WP core. And more and more themes and plugins will rely on it. I mean, with Gutenberg, you can edit 404 pages now. What’s next? Login pages? Admin pages? Also, some missing essential features will be implemented through Gutenberg, like the highly-requested multi-lingual one (Joomla already do this for a while now without extensions). In the future, if you “unplug” Gutenberg, you will undoubtedly miss some essential features. (I’m currently keeping a close eye on the Webfonts API)

What I want to say is, if CP succeeds, it will eventually become independent from WP no matter what (especially if you consider that Mullenweg strongly favors JS over PHP :thinking: and more people know JS than PHP).
We better use WP 6.0 as leverage and focus our limited resources on building a better base and ecosystem and unique features. So we don’t have to fork WP in the future, again.
It’s the best way forward whether you consider CP to be just WP without Gutenberg or not (as of right now).

5 Likes
82

LOL. Not quite. @viktor is doing a great job as a leader. Best leader I have seen in CP since I know the project. And some people are working quite efficiently in this project (not me!).

Nobody has said that the idea is to copy WordPress and be “SlavePress” as it has been mentioned.

The point that many don’t seem to be understanding here is, to copy the very complex evolution that happened in PHP, Javascript and other dependencies that ARE PART of ClassicPress because ClassicPress is a fork of WordPress.

ClassicPress has fallen behind those improvements over time, and now the idea is to refork and start fresh, but keep it as an independent CMS with an independent plugin directory.

No one will ever be able to come up to date with all those improvements that happened in all those dependencies since WordPress 4.9. No one. It has taken many many many people to work on this on WordPress over the recent years, and all of that is already done, and can be moved into ClassicPress “for free”.

The idea is to start fresh and keep copying the improvements to dependencies, to PHP, to the way core handles and caches queries, … and so on. If you want to ignore that and let CP become an old version of WordPress with a custom login screen and few plugins that will NEVER be used by a serious business, then cool… keep talking about hamsters! :joy:

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83

Hello,
I’m webdeveloper with 10 years experience in PHP and 4 in WP, specialized in server configuration, resource optimization and security. I have been looking for the lightweight alternative for WP since from release 5.0, and I have even thought about to write micro CMS using the WP highlights (Template Hierarchy, pack of fuctions compatiblity)…

At frist let me describe my subjective view of current WP development
– WP is already too heavy and too much in mess
– One need to put a lot of efforts to disable a junk output code, unwanted functionality and so on, but this is very limited (you are not able to remove everything you want), never ends, and each of new release add 20% more of junk stuff
– Currently WP contain 360 000 lines of JS what is more than PHP, far from lightweight solution
– Gutenberg head to block protocol, it means every block will be synchrized on the fly with global database
– It seems Wordpress already more appreciate mouse-using people than real programmers, effect? a lot of people install carelessly heavy theme + Gutenberg + Elementor + additions to each of them and they have no idea what actually this stuff are doing
– Let’s take a look at current plugins, it’s already not possible to be up to date with everything, a lot of them do jobs in the background what is much more burden than the main functionality itself, tons of trackings, ads, notification and other ways of fighting for admin’s attention.

Path 1: Re-fork
In this light, maintaining compatibility with current WP and current plugins looks for me like bringing to the project all most disadvantages of Wordpress, sorry, this way the project will make no big difference than WP.

Path 2: Continue As Is
I think the market is lack of lightweight solutions and here may be a big opportunity for ClassicPress.
How about providing only a small amount of very lightweight plugins (300KB rather than 30MB) and keeping it under strict verfication? Then the users would be more sure about stability, optimization and free of distraction. I think it would be great if the software can go back to respect users and serve to users, not vice versa.

I hope nobody will feel offended by this words,
all best for CP Development Team

5 Likes