Why I Believe ClassicPress Can Be More – and Why I Want to Help Build It

General Discussion
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I’ve been a ClassicPress fan for years.

And yes, I know — that’s a pretty nerdy thing to say. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

But I didn’t stick with ClassicPress simply because I wanted “WordPress without Gutenberg.”

At some point, I just wanted a CMS where I could feel:

This is mine.

I install it on my own server. I decide what runs on it. I can extend it however I want. And I don’t have to adopt every new trend just because it’s currently considered modern.

That’s why I’ve stayed with ClassicPress.

But I think we need to be honest

As much as I like ClassicPress:

I think the project is struggling.

Not necessarily because of the code.

Not necessarily because of the people behind it.

But because of the question of where ClassicPress actually wants to go.

If ClassicPress is primarily presented as “WordPress without Gutenberg”, I think we’re putting ourselves in a pretty difficult position.

Because then everything still revolves around WordPress.

What WordPress does.

What WordPress introduces.

What ClassicPress adopts.

What ClassicPress doesn’t adopt.

But ClassicPress could be much more than a fork with a different feature set.

I’d love to see ClassicPress confidently say:

We are a modern CMS for people who want control, freedom, privacy and a lean technical foundation.

To me, that’s the real opportunity.

Especially here in Germany

And this is where I see a huge gap.

ClassicPress is an international project, but in the German-speaking world, I don’t think nearly enough is being done to make its strengths visible.

Germany, Austria and Switzerland should actually be a pretty good market for a project built around self-hosting, privacy and control over your own data.

There are countless small businesses, freelancers, clubs and private projects where these things genuinely matter.

Why not say it much more clearly?

Your website. Your server. Your data.

I don’t consider that old-fashioned.

Quite the opposite.

I think digital independence is becoming more important, not less.

But a CMS needs more than a good core

That’s the next problem.

A CMS lives through its ecosystem.

Plugins.

Themes.

Developers.

Agencies.

Hosting providers.

Documentation.

Support.

And, of course, users.

If I try to convince someone to give ClassicPress a chance and the first question is:

“Is there a plugin for X?”

…I don’t want to constantly answer:

“Umm… maybe. Or you could code it yourself.” :sweat_smile:

ClassicPress needs more people actually building things for it.

And it especially needs a few flagship projects.

Developers and agencies who can say:

Yes, we actually build real projects with this.

Not just a test installation.

Real client websites.

Shops.

Portals.

Communities.

Business projects.

That’s how trust is built.

And this is where PSOURCE comes in

I can’t save ClassicPress on my own.

That would be a little too ambitious. :joy:

But I can contribute my part.

And that’s why I created PSOURCE.

PSOURCE has become more than just a collection of plugins for me.

I want to try to build a small ecosystem around ClassicPress.

Modernize plugins.

Bring abandoned projects back to life.

Remove outdated code.

Support modern PHP versions.

Get rid of old jQuery dependencies where they are no longer necessary.

Build modern interfaces.

Create new plugins.

And most importantly: build things that I would actually use myself.

Explore PSOURCE on GitHub

But there is an important part to my approach

PSOURCE is not ClassicPress-only.

My plugins are intended to work with WordPress as well.

And that’s important to me.

I don’t want to suddenly declare:

“WordPress is evil. From now on, everything is ClassicPress-only.”

That’s nonsense.

WordPress is still the largest CMS in the world, and millions of people use it.

Why would I deliberately exclude those users?

If my plugin works with WordPress, it should work there.

And if it works with ClassicPress, it should work there too.

For me, PSOURCE is a bridge between both worlds.

I can continue to support WordPress users with modern, maintained open-source software.

At the same time, I can help strengthen ClassicPress and contribute to something that is currently missing: a larger, more active ecosystem around it.

That’s quite a balancing act sometimes.

But it’s one I want to make deliberately.

I’m not trying to fight WordPress

This is important to me.

I’m not interested in starting a “WordPress vs. ClassicPress” war.

WordPress has chosen its direction.

ClassicPress can choose its own.

And PSOURCE can work on both sides.

To me, open source doesn’t mean:

“You have to use my platform.”

It means:

“Here’s the software. Do something with it.”

If you want to use WordPress — great.

If you want to use ClassicPress — even better.

And if you want to move from WordPress to ClassicPress one day, I’d like my plugins to make that transition as painless as possible.

But ClassicPress still needs its own identity

This is probably the most important point for me.

I don’t want ClassicPress to be known forever as:

“WordPress without Gutenberg.”

I think that sells the idea short.

ClassicPress could stand for something completely different:

A modern, lean and independent CMS.

No unnecessary bloat.

No obligation to adopt every new technology.

Open source.

Self-hosted.

Privacy-focused.

And supported by an ecosystem built by the developers and users who actually care about it.

And that’s where I want to start

I want to try to help fill that gap in Germany and, eventually, throughout the German-speaking community.

Not because I think I’m going to save ClassicPress.

I’m not.

I simply like ClassicPress.

And honestly, I don’t want to sit around and watch a good idea slowly fade into the background.

So I’m building.

I’m modernizing.

I’m testing.

I’m occasionally swearing at decades-old code. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

And I’m releasing the work as open source through PSOURCE.

My primary focus is currently German-speaking users and the German market, because that’s where I see a particularly large gap.

But I don’t want PSOURCE to be limited by language.

If you speak English, French, Spanish, Italian or another language and would like to help translate documentation, plugin interfaces or other parts of the project, you’re very welcome.

Translations and contributions are genuinely appreciated.

Maybe PSOURCE will eventually become a small ClassicPress ecosystem.

Maybe it will simply remain a collection of good plugins.

Maybe it will turn into something completely different.

But I want to try.

And I don’t have to choose between WordPress and ClassicPress to do it.

PSOURCE can support both.

Support WordPress.

Strengthen ClassicPress.

And perhaps build a bridge between the two worlds along the way.

Because ultimately, this isn’t about which logo appears on the login screen.

It’s about being able to build websites that actually belong to us.

Open source. Self-hosted. Privacy-friendly. Without unnecessary bloat.

I think there is still a hell of a lot of room for that.

PSOURCE is my attempt to fill a small part of that space.

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ClassicPress has rewritten Customizer (we are near its launch in the stable version but core team wants to cover all bases and test it with nightly before releasing) and after that we will tackle the editor. ClassicPress has a direction. Instead of building a very crappy editing experience and throwing it on users CP took what was there and improved it - without removing features and supporting users in a way they could still make business with it.

The ecosystem is something you have identified - one of the key points missing is marketing. ClassicPress is not famous - and this is because people as you said “don’t really talk about it”

It’s not WP against CP, it’s about identifying the right tools for a job. Your project makes totally sense in that regard.

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Thanks for the clarification. And just to be clear: I’m very aware of the work being done on ClassicPress, including the Customizer and the direction regarding the editor. That’s actually one of the reasons why I’ve been using and supporting ClassicPress almost exclusively for years.

My post wasn’t meant as criticism of the people working on ClassicPress, nor was it meant to start a “WordPress vs. ClassicPress” discussion. I simply wanted to share my personal perspective on where I think ClassicPress currently has an opportunity.

And honestly, I think that opportunity is bigger than it has been in years.

People are getting increasingly fed up with AI being pushed into everything. Every service wants more data, every platform wants more control, and users increasingly have to wonder who is actually in control of the software they use and where their data ends up.

And that is exactly where I think ClassicPress has some incredibly strong arguments.

A self-hosted, open-source CMS that doesn’t try to force every new trend onto its users, gives them control over their website and data, and stays focused on being a CMS.

That is a really powerful message right now.

My point about the ecosystem and marketing is therefore not meant as “ClassicPress needs to become more like WordPress”. Quite the opposite.

I think ClassicPress should become much better at telling people why it is different and why those differences matter.

And that’s also where I see my own role with PSOURCE.

PSOURCE works with both WordPress and ClassicPress. I’m not interested in fighting a CMS war. I’d rather help people choose the right tool for the job.

But I personally believe ClassicPress deserves a stronger presence, especially in Germany and the German-speaking community. Privacy, self-hosting and digital independence are huge topics here, and I think ClassicPress could speak to that audience very well.

So I’m not trying to replace WordPress.

I’m trying to help make ClassicPress more visible and help build some of the ecosystem around it.

And if PSOURCE can become a small part of that, I’m happy. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Yes, ClassicPress has a clear direction. It was never just WP without Gutenberg but also about all the things being promoted here. What CP lacks is the ecosystem around it, so we wholeheartedly welcome initiatives like this!

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As Tim explained - ecosystem (developers developing for CP or developers having plugins that work for both CP and WP) and also marketing are our weak spots. As you also noticed, we do not really have a strong message that is able to convey our dedication to being something stable, that does not push absurdities on users (such as blocks or AI) even if we are going in that direction, it certainly would be beneficial to have some clear messaging and develop a voice on platforms where people can see it.

However such effort (managing marketing and a consistent voice) needs people - and those same people who could set it up are involved in developing core and plugins/themes. That is why every suggestion and every step in that direction that one person can make matters. The team here at ClassicPress can’t do it all without help.

About PSOURCE, I think that it is brilliant that it can support both CP and WP. I am a believer of select the right tool for the job - and CP is not about being WPs enemy at all. We never were. It’s important to have developers who understand this because in the future others will come and this sets a precedent for what CP is and stands for. It is easy to look at CP and say “oh, it’s a fork of WP, so they are competitors hence enemies” without going deeper in the real meaning of things, if community members instead model what CP is by developing this way people can’t make this association, they have a clear demonstration that it’s not that way in front of them.

I am not a marketing guru - once upon a time we had a marketing effort and it was not very successful. I think however that your idea is sound. I will try to think about a way to put into words something that we could use as a starting point. I might come up with a “draft of an idea” and that might allow us to improve it and decide what to do with it.

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A possible direction for the ClassicPress message: Control

After the discussion here, I kept thinking about what could actually be a strong message for ClassicPress.

I don’t think we should try to find another way of saying:

“ClassicPress is WordPress without Gutenberg.”

That still puts WordPress at the center of the story.

And I don’t think ClassicPress needs to define itself by what it doesn’t do.

I’ve been with ClassicPress from the beginning, and one of the reasons I loved it almost immediately was actually very simple:

It gave me back control over my work.

While WordPress kept changing my workflow, introducing new concepts and making me constantly adapt existing projects, ClassicPress felt like a place where I could simply build websites again.

That feeling is something I think we should communicate much more strongly.

What if the core message was simply:

Your website. Your data. Your control.

And as a longer message:

In a world where everything wants your data, your attention and now even your AI, maybe all you really need is a CMS that gives you control.

I’m not suggesting that this should necessarily be the final official tagline. I’m thinking more about the idea behind it.

Because I believe the timing is actually very interesting for ClassicPress.

We are living in a time where AI is being pushed into almost everything. More and more services want our data. More things depend on external platforms and cloud services. And users increasingly have to ask themselves who actually controls the software they use and where their data goes.

ClassicPress can offer a very different answer:

You decide.

You decide where your website runs.

You decide which plugins and services you use.

You decide whether you want AI.

You decide what happens to your data.

You are not forced to follow every new trend just because someone decided it belongs in your CMS.

And I think that is a much bigger and more relevant message than simply being “the alternative to WordPress”.

It also fits the “right tool for the job” idea

This is also why I don’t see ClassicPress and WordPress as enemies.

My own project, PSOURCE, deliberately supports both.

If WordPress is the right tool for a project, great.

If ClassicPress is the right tool, great.

I’m not interested in a CMS war.

What I want is to give people good open-source tools and let them choose the platform that fits their needs.

At the same time, I believe ClassicPress has a particularly strong story to tell right now — especially around independence, self-hosting, privacy and control.

And I’d love to help tell that story, particularly in the German-speaking community.

So perhaps “Control” could be the starting point for a broader marketing concept rather than just another three-word tagline.

Something along the lines of:

ClassicPress — Your website. Your data. Your control.

with the supporting message:

A modern, open-source CMS for people who want to stay in control.

I’d really like to hear what others think about this direction.

Not necessarily the exact wording — the concept behind it.

Because I think ClassicPress already has many of these values.

Maybe what we’re missing isn’t the identity itself.

Maybe we’re simply not telling people clearly enough what that identity means.

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I think these are excellent points and a great message!

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I am in the elaboration phase still. Control is a good concept. However how can it be integrated with the real CP tagline (the CMS for Creators)?

There should be a way to say these two things together…

ClassicPress - the CMS that gives control back to creators

??? Too long and verbose IMHO…

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But because of the question of where ClassicPress actually wants to go.

Visions and goals for CP is to make a world for Creatives. Yes, we are growing (thanks for being part of the journey); Yes, we need more plugins and themes—creatives. Check out our directory https://directory.classicpress.net/ to see what we a lacking, and, contribute, please.

We do find good plugins on Github that can be refactored. Also we do lack a ‘market’ for Page Builders. FX is the current go-to but in my opinion, having good lean page builders would help peeps see the potential. Especially if they are not savvy with HTML (Creatives).

All in all I use CP because it is focused on eliminating bloat dependencies → one thing WP has not mastered as of yet. And at their current pace, I doubt they ever will be able to minimize page load size.

Thanks for all your view-points.

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A bit of context since you seem convinced CP is marketed as WP without GB - in the past we had a marketing lead (Michelle Coe) and under her lead it was established we would market CP as The CMS for Creators.

We could not express the concept of “democratizing the web” in no way for three reasons:

  • WP broke that promise
  • it’s a promise WP invented and put into words
  • our mission/vision was not oriented in that sense and expressing that concept would have put us on the same level as WP - like direct competitors

That meant finding something ours. In the early days however the struggle that we faced was that CP attracted people who build sites for a living - that is a very good target but smaller than the target we wanted to reach (ideally we would like to be seen as a good solution for businesses who need a website, for companies that build websites/themes/plugins etc for a living and for people who use a CMS to blog (be that they use it as a diary or to monetize).

The catch all phrase we chose at the time wanted to express this. That CP is for everyone who creates something.

I always felt that it was a good messaging - even if it is slightly broad and might seem generic.

Control is a good point too. Because it’s true that the stability of a CMS offers this also.

The first tagline CP used was: ClassicPress - Stable, Secure, Instantly Familiar

As you can see the first tagline expresses the “having the control” in its own way.

One point I need to make however is the fact that people (the general public that comprehends all the people that might be interested in using CP) at this moment is bombarded with “use this tool and in 3 seconds you have a complete working site without pain”. That is a problem when we want to market ourselves.

Let me clarify:

  • first of all the promise “in 3 seconds a site with no effort nor pain” is misleading and very often it’s paired with the word free and people discover at their own expenses that all these promises are dust in the eyes. This makes hard for people to believe in marketing nowadays
  • when you market something and go another direction by focusing on what really makes you you and the reason you do exists (like we are trying to do in this thread) you can be percieved as “a lot of work” because you do not promise the thing in three seconds with no pain
  • moreover when you really tell people who you are, then you do need to have a clear messaging across the board (meaning if some people like me writes on her social media about ClassicPress the post must at a bare minimum respect that identity)

So, CP is for creators, gives back control, is stable, secure and instantly familiar. Can all this be collated together?

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I think this is exactly where the pieces start to fit together.

Personally, I wouldn’t try to put everything into one tagline.

“CMS for Creators” answers who ClassicPress is for.

“Control” answers what ClassicPress gives them.

And “Stable, Secure, Instantly Familiar” explains why they can trust it.

Maybe these don’t need to compete with each other. They could work as different layers of the same message.

For example:

ClassicPress
The CMS for Creators.
Your website. Your data. Your control.

And then the supporting message could explain the rest:

Stable. Secure. Open source. Built for people who create.

I actually think “control” works particularly well because it doesn’t mean “you have to do everything yourself”. It means that you get to decide.

You decide where your website lives.
You decide which tools you use.
You decide whether you want AI.
You decide what happens to your data.
You decide how your website works.

And that also connects nicely with the “Creators” concept.

A creator doesn’t necessarily want less technology. They want technology that gets out of the way and lets them create.

That’s also why I don’t think ClassicPress needs to compete with the “build a complete website in three seconds” marketing that everyone else is doing.

Maybe the message should actually embrace the fact that ClassicPress is not promising magic.

We’re saying:

You are the creator. You are in control. ClassicPress gives you the tools and gets out of your way.

And honestly, I think that could be a pretty powerful message in 2026.

Especially because the world around us is moving in the opposite direction: more automation, more AI, more cloud services, more dependencies and increasingly less control for the actual user.

ClassicPress doesn’t have to be anti-AI or anti-technology.

It can simply say:

You decide.

That, to me, is what “Control” really means.

And perhaps that’s the bridge between “The CMS for Creators” and everything else.

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I do agree with your idea - but I do also feel CP needs an elegant way to tell the whole story. By elegant I mean something that clicks somewhat, and putting all the mottos one near the other depite feeling right creates a weight, makes it a bit “not direct” and “not relatable”. I am not saying it needs to be a single sentence. I am saying that the three concepts stem from three different ClassicPress ages and now what we need is collate them in one coherent message that simplifies the whole concept and communicates all three ideas at once.

This because CP evolved, and did so without deleting its past. CP learned from the past and the evolution of its identity meant that the important concept remained as a foundation. And I do think that this evolution in a way has been our strenght.

That said motto and tagline could be:

ClassicPress - The CMS that gives control (and/or freedom) to Creators over their digital presence
Stable, secure Instantly familiar

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This is key and for me often the reason to install WP instead, for clients. Yes, I can install a WP theme or plugin in CP, but as time passes more and more are not supported anymore. Lately there are some nice plugins added to our CP Repository, but we need more solid ones (and keep maintaining them).

Curious, are your PS plugins at GH all forks?

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That’s actually only half the story of PSOURCE. :slightly_smiling_face:

PSOURCE grew directly out of exactly the problem you describe.

For many years I had plugins and themes running in projects and client installations that had grown over a long period of time. Some of them were particularly complex multisite environments.

Then WordPress changed things, original developers abandoned projects, or plugins simply stopped working properly with newer versions.

And that puts you in a difficult position when a project has been running and evolving for years. You can’t always just say, “Let’s replace everything with something else.” A lot of the functionality is deeply integrated into the existing system, and completely refactoring a mature project can be a massive undertaking.

So at some point I decided to turn the problem into an opportunity:

If nobody is maintaining it anymore, I’ll maintain it myself.

A lot of the early PSOURCE work came from WPMU DEV plugins, especially because I was using them in complex WordPress Multisite environments. I needed them to keep working, so I started fixing, modernizing and developing them further myself.

Over time, some projects were merged into smaller, more focused suites. Others were completely rebuilt because the original architecture no longer made sense. And eventually I also started adding completely new, original projects.

So PSOURCE isn’t really a collection of forks in the traditional sense.

It’s more like something that grew over the last ten years out of real-world necessity.

Some projects still have a recognizable ancestor. Some have changed so much that calling them a fork doesn’t really describe what they are anymore. And some are now entirely my own development.

And that’s also why long-term maintenance is so important to me.

I’ve experienced firsthand what happens when a project you depend on simply disappears.

I don’t want to build another ecosystem where people install something today and have to worry whether it will still exist or work in three years.

That’s one of the reasons I see such a strong connection between PSOURCE and the problem we’re discussing here.

ClassicPress doesn’t just need more plugins.

It needs software that people can build on and trust to still be there tomorrow.

And honestly, that’s probably the biggest lesson I took from the last ten years of developing PSOURCE.

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On that I do agree. ClassicPress itself is exactly this. And developers who develop for CP understand this and create solutions that will continue to work with it.

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And this is actually one of the reasons why I see more potential in ClassicPress today than I increasingly see in WordPress.

I’m just one person. I maintain around 54 plugins and themes, and PSOURCE has grown over roughly ten years.

It started with a very practical problem: I had long-running projects and clients relying on plugins and themes that were no longer properly maintained. Some were deeply integrated into complex Multisite environments. Completely replacing or rebuilding everything wasn’t always realistic.

So I started maintaining and developing them myself.

Over the years, some projects were merged into smaller suites, some were completely rebuilt, and some eventually became my own original projects.

And because I’m based in Germany, a lot of PSOURCE has been developed specifically around the German environment — not just German translations, but things like privacy requirements, tax rules, shop functionality and other requirements that actually matter here.

But I don’t see that as a limitation.

If someone comes along tomorrow and says:

“Great, but I want English language files.”

Awesome. Do it.

Someone wants to adapt a plugin for the US market? Go ahead.

Someone wants to write English tutorials and documentation? Please do.

Someone wants to fork something, completely rewrite it, improve it or turn it into something I never imagined?

Even better.

It’s Open Source.

I’m not the master of PSOURCE. I’m simply the person who started it because I needed these things myself.

And this is exactly the kind of ecosystem I would love to see grow around ClassicPress.

I don’t need everyone to do things exactly the way I do them.

I want people to take what is there and build upon it.

That’s also why I increasingly see more potential in ClassicPress than in WordPress.

ClassicPress still feels like a project where people can shape what comes next.

There is room.

There is a need.

There are gaps that can be filled.

And there are people who actually care about building something rather than simply consuming another increasingly large platform.

I’m not saying ClassicPress is perfect. It isn’t.

But I think that openness — the fact that there is still space for people to come in, contribute, experiment and build something of their own — is a huge strength.

And perhaps that’s ultimately what an ecosystem needs most:

Not one company doing everything.

Just people who care enough to start building.

That’s what I did with PSOURCE.

And I’d love to see more people do the same with ClassicPress.

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One more thing that probably explains why I care so much about the ecosystem:

I’ve actually invested a lot of time into bringing some fairly complex software back to life.

For example, Upfront — the theme builder system originally developed by WPMU DEV.

Getting something like that working properly again with modern WordPress and ClassicPress was not a small task. There was a lot of old code, dependencies and architecture to work through.

But I did it because I believe software like this still has value.

And this also connects to something I noticed in the discussion about page builders.

I’m not sure ClassicPress necessarily needs another Elementor-style page builder.

I think there is potentially a much more interesting space here:

Theme builders.

Tools that allow creators to build and customize complete themes without forcing the entire editing experience into a page-builder model.

Something that works with the ClassicPress philosophy rather than trying to turn ClassicPress into something else.

Upfront is obviously a product of its time and has its own history and limitations, but the underlying idea is still very interesting to me.

A modern, lean theme builder for ClassicPress could be incredibly powerful.

And again, this is exactly why I think the ecosystem discussion matters.

Sometimes the missing piece isn’t another plugin that adds another feature.

Sometimes it’s a tool that makes the entire platform more accessible to people who want to create something without having to become an expert in PHP, HTML, CSS and JavaScript first.

That’s the kind of software I would love to see more of in the ClassicPress ecosystem.

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About theme builder vs page builder I think these are not competitor concepts.

CP has two page builders supporting it: Beaver Builder (which works both with CP and WP like the PSOURCE project does) and FX Builder ecosystem (that comprehends a plugin to edit content inside CP editor and a plugin to use shortcodes that offer same features as blocks by @Ciprian and a plugin built to create content for widgets in a rich way using the afore mentiooned FX Builder plugins that was developed by @Simone)

A page builder is for people who are satisfied with what a theme is already doing and need a way to enrich the content editing experience to create beautiful designs on their pages.

a theme builder on the other hand is something that can be coupled with a very simple theme. It gives the power to someone with a vision about the design to make it real. It might be used by people who are not code savvy to make their own theme, it can be used by professionals to offer website design that is really tailored to the site owner needs.

However one does not exclude the other IMHO. I can install a theme builder and all the FX Builder suite of plugins, use the theme builder to direct how the whole site looks, the layout of the whole thing and global styles all that shebang. Then I can go to a post or page and use FX suite to arrange content in columns, sections with different backgrounds and add cool bits and pieces to the content. For example I could use FX Shortcodes to put Stiky Notes on my page (that shortcode was suggested by me, improved by Ciprian because there was really room for improvement, and then included inside the FX Shortcodes plugin and I am particularly fond of it because it demonstrates how this community works for real and that Ciprian as a developer is an example I do want to follow) and the site done that way would look stunning because the theme builder and FX suite work together.

Fact is that those two tools are not competitors, one can use one or the other or both at the same time depending on the result they are looking for and the needs they do have.

And in that regard you are right - CP has maintained the ability and the space to build and use such tools. In the years it has cleaned up, modernized and improved towards this - that is exactly the kind of work you have done with PSOURCE suite of plugins evolving them during the years (Can I say kudos?)

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Yes — and reading your explanation, I realize that PSOURCE has actually followed exactly this approach for quite some time.

One of my first examples was Padma Unlimited, which had been abandoned.

Instead of simply keeping the old collection of separate builder plugins alive, I modernized it and integrated the functionality directly into the theme itself.

That eventually became PS Padma ContentBuilder — a theme and template builder for both WordPress and ClassicPress.

The idea was exactly what you describe:

A relatively simple theme/framework provides the foundation, and the builder gives the creator the freedom to turn a design vision into an actual working website.

And then there is the other big example: UpFront.

I have probably invested hundreds of hours into bringing the old WPMU DEV UpFront framework back to life and making it usable again.

And I completely agree with your distinction now that you explain it this way.

UpFront was never really just a “page builder”. Its whole philosophy was much closer to what you describe as a theme builder: you could control the structure, regions, elements, global styling and basically the entire visual system of the website.

That’s actually one of the reasons I find this discussion so interesting.

I didn’t set out ten years ago thinking:

“ClassicPress needs theme builders.”

I was simply trying to preserve and modernize tools that I thought were genuinely brilliant.

But looking at it now, I think there is a very strong case for this kind of tool in ClassicPress.

And perhaps this is another example of what we were discussing earlier:

Don’t throw away good ideas just because the original project was abandoned. Learn from them, modernize them and let them evolve.

That’s essentially what I’ve been doing with PSOURCE for years.

And yes — kudos absolutely accepted. :joy:

But honestly, the kudos goes both ways. Seeing how the FX ecosystem has evolved through people building on each other’s work is exactly the kind of Open Source development I would like to see more of.

One person starts something.

Someone else improves it.

Someone else adds an idea.

And eventually you have something none of the original developers could have created alone.

That’s the ecosystem I’m interested in.

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Small backstory about FX Builder - it was born because stuttborn me was looking for something to allow me to have columns without having to write code and CSS for them since I needed them on pages on a daily basis for a particular site and didn’t have the time to set up a theme to understand them. I found a WP plugin very old and possibly abandoned called f(x) builder in WP repos and started testing it. I mentioned it (can’t remember if here or on Zulip) to tell people that it worked with CP. Ciprian took a look at the code and spotted the fact that it could be improved by modernizing the code (it used floats!!) and that by implementing such improvements would make it something really usefull for CP. he adopted it, forked it and derived the whole FX Builder suite from it in time.

It’s an example of what CP allows people to do - and the possibilities are unlimited.

That is why I do think there is the space to evolve the ecosystem with tools, plugins and themes. CP is not big like WP in terms of userbase or number of developers developing solutions that work with it but slowly and surely a piece at the time with devs who have a vision like you do the ecosystem grows. I think here what matter is not the speed - but the fact that while growing we do not break our promise to offer a stable CMS to people so that they can build on top of it without fear of being thrown out when the new shiny feature drops.

This does not mean CP does not have new shiny features - it just means that we offer them in a way that does not break what people have built. We cooperate with people and people have a say. And I see PSOURCE being open to the same collaboration (you mentioned that you welcome contributions if I understand correctly). I think one of the things that has always made CP what it is, is the fact that it values collaboration over egos. I do think that a community that proceeds this way becomes timeless, linking contributions of new users to the contributions made before them in a sort of stream - and this is strenght. a community valuing the single person or a restricted group of people instead is linked to the fact that this person/group of people continues to remain there. when they go away problems might arise (WP, I am looking at you…).

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