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@James_Nylen: !channel marketing meeting starting now
@1stepforward: Sorry for the tardiness. Minor emergency to attend to.
@James_Nylen: hope all is well now…
@klein: I have to step out of this meeting thanks to major emergency
@Michelle_Coe: Sorry to hear this Klein, thank you for letting us know. Hope all is well.
@klein: I apologize in advance
@Michelle_Coe: or — that it goes well…
Okay — let’s get started with the first agenda item, which has to do with messaging/website updates. @James_Nylen, you were going to help define primary target market personas. There’s actually some current related discussion going on about that on the Forums…
> current primary target market personas (“developer == coder” persona, and to some extent the “developer == website builder”) so that we can more accurately focus our messaging (freelance web developers; web development agencies)
I think that is an ok start, but it is very “developer-heavy”
I would add another big group of users, both casual and professional/business: those who want to put up a website and "set it and forget it"
also, are we talking about replacing our “business-focused CMS” branding? to be honest that lacks “oomph” to me
@1stepforward: I agree with that.
@Michelle_Coe: Do you feel that casual/professional businesses have the knowledge to set up a ClassicPress site on their own?
@James_Nylen: good question
@1stepforward: Are we any different than WP in this respect?
@Michelle_Coe: Our last discussion was pretty lengthy and at the time we questioned the “business-focused CMS” branding, which led to our action item to evolve the messaging.
@Wade_Striebel: I also agree with this thread in the sense that on the homepage we really don’t “sell” CP
@Michelle_Coe: We came to the conclusion (I believe, I’d have to go back to the notes) that we really aren’t business-focused necessarily
@Joy_Reynolds: I don’t think the changes in CP are focused on business.
not that we couldn’t be, but aren’t now
@Michelle_Coe: To Wade’s point — we can’t sell CP until we’re clear on who we’re selling it to.
@Wade_Striebel: I completely agree
@1stepforward: We’re selling it to disgruntled WP users as a start.
@James_Nylen: > Do you feel that casual/professional businesses have the knowledge to set up a ClassicPress site on their own?
and hobbyists. yes - we’ve seen at least 15-20 examples of this on our forums so far
but it might take a bit of time… true with any platform where you own your own data, as opposed to square/wix
that “you own your own data” is important to me, and I think it’s more true with CP than WP
@Michelle_Coe: But — WHO are the disgruntled WP users? Business owners? Or the website developers and site managers tasked with maintaining and updating the site?
@1stepforward: All of them?
@James_Nylen: developers, but also hobbyists and casual users who would rather take the time to figure things out than hire a developer
@Michelle_Coe: Reading through the last conversation: https://forums.classicpress.net/t/marketing-meeting-february-7-2020/2113/6
@James_Nylen: I think there are 2 main groups
@1stepforward: Anyone still using WP 4.9 and/or the Classic Editor.
@Wade_Striebel: I would agree, but also disagree to some point - the hobbyist I think just go along with the ride and don’t really know any better
@James_Nylen: ok, so that is where this “evangelist” role could come into play, I hope we get some time to talk about that in this meeting
@Michelle_Coe: Developers/web development agencies were what we settled on in the last meeting
@Wade_Striebel: I would still agree with that at the end of the day
@Michelle_Coe: And yes we’ll touch on evangelist
@1stepforward: If you read that Reddit post, there are some really peed off people. https://www.reddit.com/r/Wordpress/comments/h0qqls/prediction_in_3_years_site_builders_like/?sort=new
@James_Nylen: I think that is too limiting
@James_Nylen: then you exclude people we’ve had on the forums like Zoe, mariana (what was her full name)?
have been many others
“well I’m not a developer so this isn’t for me”
@Michelle_Coe: I agree that it is limiting. But who will give us the highest level of adoption, and who is most likely to return to also contribute to the project?
@Wade_Striebel: That is true
@James_Nylen: is there a good reason not to have two different personae?
@Michelle_Coe: I think we can have two different personas but our messaging will be different for each one.
we’ve already started on that with the separate landing pages…
@Michelle_Coe: Right now, given that we need greater levels of adoption and we also need contributors, I’d suggest pursuing developers and web agencies as a primary persona, with hobbyists as a secondary market.
But isn’t that where the evangelist comes into it?
@Michelle_Coe: Yes @1stepforward, we’re getting there. Bear with me.
This leads us to — what should our message be? Which references Wade’s comment earlier about this post: https://forums.classicpress.net/t/sale-tactics-classicpress-missing-link/2372
What is the message that will sell CP to developers and web agencies?
@James_Nylen: I don’t think it’s a good idea to try to tackle website changes in this meeting
not that specifically at least
@Michelle_Coe: I’m not suggesting that we do. I am suggesting that we get our messaging in order.
@James_Nylen: I have an idea for a starting/continuing point though: the monthly update threads
Michelle you’ve told me multiple times that you need more to work with in order to market effectively
I think if all teams are posting what is new each month (maybe 2 months to start, but really should be each month), then there is a lot we can do with that
@Michelle_Coe: Our evangelist needs to be able to have something to talk about. That’s messaging.
And yes, @James_Nylen — having more to work with is also part of that messaging. Absolutely.
@James_Nylen: push that content from the forums to the blog/twitter/Reddit…
@Michelle_Coe: There is a sales aspect, but I need to know who I’m selling to. Now that we’re clear on that we can start figuring out how to “sell” that to developers/agencies.
@Michelle_Coe: And I say “I” but really this needs to be “WE” — I can’t be the only one responsible for this.
@James_Nylen: for me, the selling points and messaging always need to start from the facts about what we’ve already done
first fact: ClassicPress is stable and will not be making breaking changes - this should appeal greatly to both of our market segments
@fwolf: is watching from the side lines …
@1stepforward: What we’re selling is WP without the GB mess and without the WP culture.
@fwolf: and probably 25 mb less of installation …
@James_Nylen: second fact: we get security updates promptly (many people don’t seem to realize that)
@Joy_Reynolds: As a developer, what attracts me to Open Source is the ability to make a difference in software that I use and perhaps fix those things that bother me. But in this environment, there’s so much push about democracy that it feels very limiting and I don’t know what I can/can’t do.
@James_Nylen: major changes need to go through a petition
bugfixes don’t, but I need help implementing and testing them
@1stepforward: There is a feeling that the petitions process is too slow. I’ve heard this several times.
@Michelle_Coe: > But in this environment, there’s so much push about democracy that it feels very limiting and I don’t know what I can/can’t do.
Joy this is an important statement but I think it should be addressed but at the committee level, rather than marketing. Can we talk more about this outside of this particular meeting?
@James_Nylen: > the petitions process is too slow
where are the developers???
@1stepforward: James - what can be done to help you with the bugfixes?
@James_Nylen: at the moment people aren’t even reporting issues and saying “this affects my site and prevents me from doing the following things” - so that’s the first step…
@Michelle_Coe: > There is a feeling that the petitions process is too slow. I’ve heard this several times.
This is important too. I think there is a misunderstanding regarding the petitions process overall. Like James said, petitions are used for major changes, and to me major changes means major updates (v2).
That said — James is right. Without developers, the entire process is going to be slow.
@James_Nylen: but we should probably stick to messaging here
@1stepforward: > where are the developers???
And we’re back to square one. The evangelist.
@Michelle_Coe: Before we engage an evangelist we need to know what we want them to say. We were starting to build some messaging ideas around that.
@Joy_Reynolds: But the messaging to developers should be about how their actions can make a big difference (and somehow soften the thing about limitations).
@1stepforward: > people aren’t even reporting issues
Is that because of Githubphobia perhaps?
@James_Nylen: hopefully this person would be able to take a look at where we currently stand and bring their own ideas
@Joy_Reynolds: You have to actually use the software to find problems. It’s fairly mature.
There are a lot of Trac tickets to fix though.
@James_Nylen: the highest-impact issues for us are always going to be the ones that are actively affecting our users
@1stepforward: With CP, there’s a great opportunity for developers. I think many developers are fearful that WP is going to take all that away.
@James_Nylen: and it’s not just github
@Michelle_Coe: This person should be an enthusiastic user at the very least.
@James_Nylen: I think it’s also ok to recruit from outside our community for this
@Michelle_Coe: Okay, so far I have these bullet points:
• ClassicPress is stable and will not be making breaking changes
• WP without the GB mess and without the WP culture.
• we get security updates promptly
• the ability to make a difference in software that I use and perhaps fix those things that bother me
• there’s a great opportunity for developers. I think many developers are fearful that WP is going to take all that away.
@James_Nylen: i.e. they should be, or become, an enthusiastic user
@Michelle_Coe: Agreed — so what does recruitment mean?
@James_Nylen: have we reached out to https://bridgetwillard.com/contact/ previously?
Bridget Willard: Contact - Bridget Willard
@Michelle_Coe: Yes. She’s not interested.
@James_Nylen: when was this? what did she say? I think it might be worth trying again
@Michelle_Coe: I’ve been following her and developing a relationship for some time. I can ask again but IMO she’s badly burned. Still.
@1stepforward: No response from either Justin Tadlock or Jeff Chandler?
@James_Nylen: Bridget did just post a link back to her article from 2019 a few days ago
and it says something like “would I do it all again? yes”
well… you can
I think if we can get someone like that on board, we should even try to scrounge together some money and say “if you can bring in more donations then the directors can pay you more from that”
@1stepforward: Briefly, who is Bridget?
@Michelle_Coe: I missed that. Like I said, I’m willing to ask again.
Bridget was the original marketing director for WP, who was replaced by Joost. She found out via Twitter. It was ugly.
@James_Nylen: yeah, Bridget was WP marketing lead and then woke up one day to find out that her position had been replaced, with no knowledge…
she built the WP marketing team from the ground up
@1stepforward: Nasty. And a very good reason to come to CP.
@Michelle_Coe: I’ll ask.
@James_Nylen: and tell her that we can pay her, even if not a ton at first
@1stepforward: Anyone else? James, anyone from your past at WP?
@James_Nylen: I will backstop that myself if needed
there really weren’t many people that dared to disagree with what was going on around Gutenberg…
@1stepforward: Thought as much.
Do we need a fund raising drive?
@James_Nylen: we’re not really ready to do that as an organization
still waiting on bank accounts and stuff to open up…
@1stepforward: How much to we make via donations? If you can mention that here…
@James_Nylen: so far, enough to cover our hosting costs, but that # has been dropping
I don’t have the exact figures either
@1stepforward: So, very little then
Worth asking the community to help out?
@Wade_Striebel: > Worth asking the community to help out?
In all aspects, yes
@Michelle_Coe: We absolutely need the community to help out. We can’t continue as we are.
We need to start funding an actual marketing plan.
That’s another Committee conversation, however…
@James_Nylen: the committee is another conversation
@Wade_Striebel: Ya it is
@James_Nylen is it worth setting up sponsors on GitHub?
Not that we have anywhere for that to go yet though
@James_Nylen: yeah I applied for that about a week or 2 ago
@1stepforward: Can we do a forum post asking for donations?
@James_Nylen: we don’t have anywhere for them to go right now
we will be ready for that in about 2-3 months
@Wade_Striebel: Ya right now it is all just sitting in Stripe
@1stepforward: I take it the transfer to the US is in limbo then?
@James_Nylen: it’s in progress
the IRS is kind of shut down
@1stepforward: Ah yes.
@Michelle_Coe: and banks… and everything else…
@James_Nylen: but we’re not really ready to announce that yet either…
@1stepforward: Sounds familiar…
@Wade_Striebel: Going back to marketing, what do we need? Other than more help
@James_Nylen: if we find someone who is willing to help us evangelize CP for pay, then we’ll need to handle that among ourselves, and I’m happy to be the point of contact there
@1stepforward: So, anyone else other than Bridget?
@Michelle_Coe: So — we have our target market and we have someone to approach to possibly be an evangelist. I agree w/ 1step that we need other candidates, but I don’t know of any. Thoughts?
@James_Nylen: I can reach out and see
I’m in a couple of digital freelancer communities
but no one else with connections, experience, and likely motivation comes to mind
@1stepforward: Sarah Gooding?
@Michelle_Coe: Link? I don’t know her
@James_Nylen: is she not with wp tavern anymore?
@Michelle_Coe: I can use some of the facts we’ve outlined to start a social media marketing plan for the next 3 months or so if we can continue to see updates from Team Leads, to supplement that work
@Wade_Striebel: I have to run, I will follow up later
@1stepforward: Not sure. She used to be so she may be too far gone.
@Michelle_Coe: I think that anyone involved with WP Tavern is likely to be out of our reach.
@1stepforward: It appears she is still with WP Tavern https://wptavern.com/author/sarah
@Michelle_Coe: Then I think she is an unlikely candidate.
@Joy_Reynolds: Perhaps more regularly scheduled meetings would prompt people to show up to see how things are going?
@1stepforward: Yes, me too.
@fwolf: it certainly brought me back here to watch from the side lines …
@Michelle_Coe: I agree, Joy. It was our intent to do so at the beginning of 2020, but then COVID happened. I don’t know about anyone else here, but I’m still scrambling right now.
@1stepforward: Scrambling and scrambled.
@Michelle_Coe: So… volunteer efforts got pared way down because the available time just wasn’t there. We’re doing our best to recommit, moving forward. This meeting is the start of that.
@1stepforward: Yes, it’s been really tough.
@James_Nylen: But still alive, still here, and not giving up. Right?
@1stepforward: Definitely not!
@Michelle_Coe: Absolutely not.
Okay — so, I can work on the marketing plan and getting that implemented. Can everyone here please keep an eye on social and share when you see the posts come through?
@James_Nylen: I have a Reddit account that I can resurrect for that.
@Michelle_Coe: I know there’s been some discussion around platforms — I did set up a ClassicPress user on Reddit and got Scott to make me a moderator on the CP subreddit (which I’d forgotten about)
James, if you want I can make you a moderator, along with anyone else who wants to participate. I don’t tend to spend time on Reddit, so if there are regular users here, they would be best to take this one.
BUT — I’ll accept any help at all!
@James_Nylen: ok let me make sure I can actually access that account first
@James_Nylen: I’m much more comfortable/familiar with Reddit than any of the other platforms
@Joy_Reynolds: I don’t use any of them, so no help here…
@Michelle_Coe: We are currently on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn. Those are the 3 most common platforms, but I also get that most devs are probably not on there a lot. What other forums/groups should CP be a part of — if any?
@1stepforward: I created an account on Reddit (as a CP user) just to respond to “that” post. Not sure if anyone wants to follow that up or leave it be now.
@James_Nylen: I think that one is good for now, there will be others
/r/Wordpress is good to be watching I think
@Joy_Reynolds: Otto moderates that one…
@fwolf: mastodon / pleroma, maybe?
@James_Nylen: are there a lot of wp users and/or devs on those?
unless someone wants to volunteer then my guess would be those aren’t going to have much reach
@Michelle_Coe: I don’t want to get us spread too thinly, but if there are places we need to be, then so be it. Joy, thanks for the heads-up on Otto.
@fwolf: well, when tumblr did its thing, there was a mass exodus to mastodon …
@Michelle_Coe: I think anyone who wants to reach into the dev space w/ a marketing message really needs to be a developer him/herself. I would not feel comfortable commenting there, because I wouldn’t want to get myself in trouble by talking about things I don’t have “developer-speak”
@1stepforward: Medium was mentioned earlier. Is that worth following?
@Michelle_Coe: Medium is a publishing platform — anyone can submit an article for publication there. It may or may not get picked up.
@Joy_Reynolds: When I joined a local Meetup for Web Developers last year, I mentioned WP and no one knew much about it.
@Michelle_Coe: We’ve had some discussion about reaching out locally to web developer groups… I’ve attended a few of those meetings and they’re - interesting.
Lots of diversity in the group, but not a lot of WP developers
A couple of Ruby on Rails guys (but that’s another conversation)
@Joy_Reynolds: makes you wonder who to target?
@Michelle_Coe: Yes… you would think local WP meetup groups would be a good place but those are often (in my area anyway) first time users/hobbyists etc. who have questions they need answered because they’re in trouble.
@fwolf: yep, same here.
mostly introductionary meetups, not much in terms of advanced or professional users
@Michelle_Coe: Well, it’s something to keep in mind/keep thinking about. I think we’re all open to further suggestions.
There are a couple of things left on the agenda — and I don’t want to keep you all here for too much longer — we all have other things to do. Re: landing pages for theme developers —
@fwolf: there seems to be kind of a lack of meetups / meetings similar to Webmonday / Web Wednesday, which were a big thing in the mid 2000s and early 2010s …
@Michelle_Coe: Joy — you mentioned the need for something similar to the WP Theme Developer Handbook, which you found out was licensed under GPL2
I’m not clear on the licensing so… can someone give me the TL:DR?
@Joy_Reynolds: Yes, are you trying to pull in theme devs by contrasting with WP or as stand-alone CP?
Basically, you can copy and modify the existing handbook.
and license it the same way.
@Michelle_Coe: Well — the idea of the landing page was to attract theme developers to develop themes for CP, or to support CP w/ existing themes.
@Joy_Reynolds: To spend the time to write a theme or plugin, there needs to be some incentive. People use the WP repo as an advertising platform for their Pro version.
@Joy_Reynolds: But, lacking the same incentive of the mass of traffic that WP has, you have to at least give them some idea of how to write a theme or plugin and what the software base requirements are.
@Michelle_Coe: Which is why you suggested the handbook, correct?
@Michelle_Coe: So, if it’s okay to copy it, I think that’s great — we’ll need someone then to edit it. I think we can add that to an action item list but think it’s a secondary priority…
We need theme developers but need core developers more IMO
@Joy_Reynolds: The whole section for submitting themes to the repo would need to be deleted.
@1stepforward: It would be nice to have some dedicated CP themes. I think that would be good PR.
@James_Nylen: we do have a few that have been posted on the forums
that is probably something to launch along with v2
@1stepforward: That would be good.
@Joy_Reynolds: Same for plugins, docs-wise.
@Michelle_Coe: cool. Anything else today?
otherwise, I think we can wrap for now…
@1stepforward: Just to mention that I’m creating a new “ClassicPress for WordPress Users” page for the website, mainly targeted at WP4.9 users. Work in progress.
@Michelle_Coe: Great. Thank you for taking that on.
@Michelle_Coe: I want to thank you all for being here today. I’ll summarize the meeting and document in the forums.