Take one quick look at the ClassicPress admin dashboard and, if you’re a WordPress user, you’ll see something instantly familiar. That’s what our community wanted. Something that looks and works like their favorite CMS…but better.
This promise is not limited to version 1. And anyone who has made a careful and conscious choice to switch to CP knows that version 2 will introduce breaking changes. And I think that most CP users do expect to upgrade to version 2 when it becomes available, expecting not only the improvements, but that ClassicPress will still look and work like WordPress.
And if keeping this promise means being careful in how we make changes to the core, then that is what we should do.
I would like to note that this promise doesn’t emphasize CP differentiating itself from WP, but how similar the two are.
This is a major problem.
Out of grievance nothing good ever came.
I think we need to move on in this sense. Not forget he heritage, but forget that frustration. If we don’t, we will remain bitter forever.
I want to know what the community really thinks and feels about pushing progress for ClassicPress
As a community member (and since I am here, a very active one I dare to say), but not speaking for the community per se, I think we need to push - into the right direction!
That for me includes adding and polishing features, where it is possible without breaking existing things and where we have the people who can do it.
I don’t care if this is in v1 or v2.
As a matter of facts, I do not believe this community is able to maintain more than one main version, at a time.
And thus I believe very much v2 is something that we will see in a very, very far future and it will likely mean that either of (v1 or v2) will get neglected. I also very much hope actually we will never reach the breaking point because that will mean, all my website, all my plugins, all my code might just require a total rehab, and if then adapted to v2, would not work anymore on v1, and thus, I would either have to maintain 2 branches of my own code, to satisfy both worlds (heck - 3 branches, because I also have WP users).
On a sidenote, we literally barely can manage to maintain current v1.
Issues get filed and get solved not days, or weeks or months later, but years later. I mean - even if these issues are not actual anymore, they are still open - thus technically not solved.
The very least, these issues should get a status of “closed”. We do not have time for that simple thing, but we expect to develop, maintain v2 along with v1?
Nota bene, I don’t think this is because the community is lazy or whatever.
It is because we lack the resources in terms of active, experienced users who are able to contribute (lets not forget that all work done in this project is for free and does not even increase ones “status” in the world of webmasters or programmers, like it does when you contribute to WP a lot)
Does anyone have some hidden resources that will make it possible to maintain 2 different CMS? Is anyone here even willing to do that? Writing documentation for 2 CMS? Keeping 2 CMS Code References up to date when we can’t even keep the current one updated, not to speak of non-existing documentation in relation to user guides? Our Directory featuring numerous probably broken plugins? Huh, translation, which has been “interrupted by a pandemic”, LOL!
All that, wont get easier with v2. Pandemic is still here. Next one is approaching, and if it is not a pandemic it will be a financial crisis or WW3.
Again, the real issue here is we simply do not have the resources to do all that. The facts speak for themselves.
For example, if you check votes on petitions, you will see that roughly always the same 10 people involve.
10 People. Not 100, not 1000, not 50k and surely not 50M.
WordPress has huge companies supporting it with what they call "five for the future. Some companies have their employees almost 100% focused on WP. I think the most focus we get on CP by the common user is “I have nothing to do right now, lets comment on some forum threads”. Certainly I did not yet see any company fully committing to CP, or any developer fully committing to it. It is simply not possible, because there is no cash in CP. No one will want his/her website built on a tool that still has its feet in moving sand. You literally have to “force CP down the clients throat” (sounds familiar?) to convince them to use it.
Because all of this, I am all in favour of keeping v1 forever, and polish it forever, actually.
There are literally thousands of things in current v1 that can be improved and would make it a much better and nicer tool.
This includes things like TinyMCE update, which I am absolutely sure it is possible to integrate it in a way that does not need you to create a new website to use it. I am very sure it is possible to integrate it in a way that even could stay in a v1 (non-breaking).
And it will probably not require much more effort than maintaining 2 versions of the same CMS (as v1 and v2 would basically be)
But there are also many, many other less significant things that can be improved in CP, which only surface when one actually uses the tool very deeply, codes with it daily, and gets annoyed daily on the tiny things, the little missing things that would be so nice to have, and would improve our CP by so much with very little maintenance effort and certainly without breaking any backwards compatibility.
I think, IMO, until we do not have a actual workforce that is able to maintain everything related to V1 (and that includes DOC, plugins, themes, PHP 8 compatibility, yada, yada, yada), we shouldn’t even spend time thinking about a v2 in terms of a breaking change, but only in terms of a update that might break some edge cases.
Thanks for this honest reply about where CP really stands. I have the general idea, of course, even before I switched, and your answer only confirms what I’ve been seeing.
I do want facts like these. When I write and try to convince people to give CP a chance, I want to be honest about the truth.
This sounds interesting. Why not?
Dernerd said something similar about the community focusing on the platform’s stability.
I’m aware of this even from the beginning. I too of course wants my own websites built on solid ground. But given my skill level (and I tried out a few other platforms), the only real option for me was WordPress. However, I don’t really like the block editor, and I don’t like where WordPress is going, and so I switched to ClassicPress. Even with its uncertain future.
This is why I’m doing what I can to contribute to the community. I’m not a developer, but I can write, and thus this blog that I’m making about web publishing, which will feature ClassicPress, among a few other platforms.
Not intended as a jab, though I do admit to being a bit frustrated with what I see as you and others not giving due consideration to the experience of people who [have] maintain[ed] the core software, be it WordPress (our past) or ClassicPress (our present and future).
Personally I struggle with starting multi-contributor software projects, and I am much better at polishing and finishing them.
I’m very glad to hear this, because the discussions so far have had a very different tone!
And this is another very important issue to consider. How can we realistically expect to cram everything possible into version 2, and break compatibility in ways we aren’t even thinking about testing yet, and still maintain v1?
What would realistically happen is that nobody would use v2 – or – it would simply never ship. And if we were to somehow ship v2 without being careful about what should go into it and how the upgrade path should look, then we would lose all of the reputation that we’ve built up for being a stable alternative to WordPress that doesn’t break upon upgrades.
I’ve updated the ClassicPress | Stable. Lightweight. Instantly Familiar. page accordingly. As of now, we should all plan for v2 to include the integration with our plugin directory, and not much else in the way of major changes. If other big projects somehow become ready much more quickly than expected, then we can change that, but for now, this is the only realistic shot we have at shipping v2 in the next few months.
OK, this is a good explanation of the issues that I could not find in the earlier parts of the thread. But the issues sound like they can be resolved; why isn’t the focus on resolving them?
And, James, I think you violated your ‘criticize views not people’ directive here:
If we don’t ship the directory first, there is little use in shipping the editor.
That’s because we have promised CP’s ecosystem way before evaluating the editor upgrade.
At the restaurant I get upset if people arrived after me get their meal with no wait, while I am made to wait countless minutes.
This doesn’t mean we should not work on the editor, certainly. It’s just a matter of doing things following an order and prioritizing what would make things easier for users (IMHO if directory is in place, there’s even the possibility that the editor will be worked on by more people and gets shipped before planned…).
I think also that trying to ship many things all at once is confusing for users, who will need to get used to them all at once.
And there is no problem IMHO in releasing the directory with V2, and in a short time coming out with a version 3 plan focused on the editor solely. I mean, we can use that idea also for marketing. Giving a “focus theme” to each main release.
So in the time between V2 and 3 that can be as long as needed, we will focus our marketing towards developers inviting them to distribute their plugins and themes through our directory. And when V3 is released we can focus on directing users to resources to learn to use the editor to the fullest. Maybe even with interviews to the devs that made the editor upgrade possible sharing the behind the scenes.
It’s not a race, it’s like stairs. One thing at the time. We aren’t WP, we do things carefully and every feature is shipped with love.
I hope what I wanted to say there can stand apart from the criticism: sometimes people naturally assume different roles in the lifecycle of a collaborative project. This is something I’m still discovering and evaluating myself, but for me it’s often more natural to finish and polish something than to start it, and so I would expect the same to be true of other people in different ways. Maybe that’s something that can help us move forward here.
I agree, and this also seems like a reasonable plan to me in terms of what I would expect to be ready when, from a technical perspective.
One of the biggest things I love about ClassicPress is the community led directional choices that drive improvements. WordPress is an arena now where you get what you are given, and if you don’t like it you can try t find a plugin that delivers the features you want - like Classic Editor and Classic Widgets for example but there are other older examples - I had a custom plugin running on my sites that moulded WP to what I preferred.
On of the biggest things I hate about ClassicPress is the slow speed of development. That said, I have grown to understand this and accept it to a certain extent.
Have a look at the list of contributors to the last release of WordPress as compared to the list of contributors to the last release of ClassicPress.
Essentially, ClassicPress needs more help and loads and loads of it. Without that we can all have raised expectations but delivery against those expectations is going to fall short because the project needs a much greater number of developers to be actively working on the project.
It’s a catch-22 though, if the project stagnates then developers won’t join, but lack of developers means the project stagnates.
Yes. This is CP’s greatest strength, the “community led directional choices.”
True, one can indeed try to “mould WP” to what he wants it to be, but that is very much limited to developers, and ordinary users can’t do much about customization except to choose plugins and themes that fit their needs. And as we all know, even that freedom is continually being eroded as plugins and themes try to conform more and more to what WordPress wants them to be.
In ClassicPress, there is truly that sense of tangible stability in the air…
From a user’s point of view, I think that ClassicPress is like a man trying to make a name for himself when his own father, WordPress, is ultra-famous. He is always overshadowed by his father’s success. True, there will always be expectations (they share the same genetic pool, after all), but his own unique qualities are overlooked. One thing we don’t want though is for ClassicPress to rebel and strive to become as different as his father as possible, and thus lose the strength he possesses: his heritage. If you have ever read the play-sequel to the books, think of Harry Potter and his rebel son, Albus Potter.
Metaphors aside, I think that this also has to do with a developer’s (or a company’s) own motivation. If you’re in it only for the money, then WP is your best bet. But if you’re the kind of person who fights for the things he believes in (even at the cost of an uncertain future and loss of a possible large income), then ClassicPress will appeal to you. And there’s nothing we can do about this, except to fight all the more eagerly for ClassicPress’ cause.
About 18 years ago WP was born as a fork of something else.
Yes, WP is a fork of b2 CMS.
Most likely it wasn’t famous from the start. It was born because someone (Matt) wanted something different.
Since history always repeats itself…
We are now what WP was at that point in time.
Same issues, a little number of developers, a legacy, people’s expectations.
But it was all solved by building a company (Automattic) around it to fund its efforts, so there was enough money to market it to people, to develop it and make it famous. Because it was developed to make money, money was invested in it from the start. That is why WP can change and upset all the people. It’s not an open source gift to people, developing it it’s an investment for Automattic, so it’s managed the Automattic’s way.
Now, in its early days when the founder (Scott) was still contributing, it was decided that having a company to make money to fund the project was a mistake, WP is not really free from the power dynamics coming from the money used to support it.
This means we have to slowly fight our way up to gain momentum, relying on donations and volunteer contributions.
This means we are REALLY community driven.
This means we are establishing our own way to grow.
It is not a catch-22. Because very slowly we are gaining users and someday the critical mass is going to be reached, and momentum gained.
It may be harder than what it was for WP, but we are getting there.
Another thing, WP was born to differ from b2, as we are born to differ from WP. There’s nothing of b2 legacy now in WP. I mean, maybe there’s some VERY OLD code. But the way b2 works is very different from WP, so we can say WP is totally its own thing.
With that I mean the real legacy shouldn’t be features, code, appearance… We should try to be what WP at a certain point failed to be because of the money power struggles.
You’ve openned up something I’ve also been meaning to ask. In other successful open source projects, we see at the bottom of their websites the logos, names, and links of their sponsors. I’m assuming that those sponsors have contributed resources to the project, and that they are getting something in return for their investments.
But ClassicPress is different, as you’ve just said. We are a non-profit organization, and a democracy. And so, what then can this project offer businesses & other organizations to gain their support? If it’s neither about influencing the project in some way, nor about direct profits from financial investments, what can ClassicPress offer them besides an excellent piece of software that is already free for everyone to use?
Personally, I primarily see ClassicPress as a cause. Something that you join and fight for because you believe in it.
About monetization, not all forms of it lead to power struggles and big players supporting the project gaining the right to direct it.
There are many discussion on this forum, on how to handle this in a way that is able to push the project ahead, without hindering the “community driven” aspect.
CP was born also to be its own way about monetization also, and I think this is very good. We can really build a better WP.
Some of the suggestions I have seen revolved around two concepts:
allowing premium plugins and themes to be sold via the directory, asking for a commission in return (so a ClassicPress shop for premium extensions along the free ones)
building a platform where people in need of ClassicPress services can find companies/freelancers providing them (something like an Upwork for ClassicPress) where ClassicPress receives commissions from people using the platform.
I personally think the first is the viable one, the second was discussed about two years ago but to be realized there is a need to invest in building the platform itself.
Other proposals where debating the possibility of building a service like WP.com where part of the revenue was reinvested in CP, but this also needs a great starting investment for infrastructure, and basically means just replicating WP model, so IMHO is a faux-pas.
The project is however building enough momentum that it is possible to introduce some form of monetization in the future. And I am sure the community is totally able to come up with a business model able to fund it in an ethical way.
Look, honestly. You will read below what I felt and I am sure many of us recent users felt when having contact with CP V1.x.x:
Empowerment is a WordPress thing, first and foremost. This term designates imposition, and is totally contrary to the philosophy of the CP.
That said, the experience of using and installing the CP is something magnificent. I never thought it would be so easy to open FTP, file the entire WordPress installation, upload the cp installer, connect to the existing database and voila! A stable, rock-solid panel and wonderful plugins designed with charm, elegance and great grace. The Block plugin updates, for example, is cute. That minimalist and flat blue padlock, as well as the clean and polished interface of the CP makes it the IOS of the CMS if you can understand it. And it is in this, in this extreme simplicity that the magic of CP lies. Especially knowing that behind this beautiful, clean, lean and solid interface, there are updated security routines. Can you only have the true dimension of the magnificent feat you have done? Since Guttemberg’s entry into WordPress I dreamed of this moment, of finding CP! All the magic and pleasure of making websites and producing content has been reinvigorated. And that’s where all the magic of CP lies. Don’t touch the editor! Just update how you’re doing it, with security patches. Take as long as necessary, let them think that the project is stalled. But never, ever dare to insert a single line of code, without going through the strong clivo that you built. The CP is wonderful! If you want to build a version 2 for the editor, look for a way to format the blocks like Instant-Articles on Facebook. That is, we edit normally as it is, and then when it comes to publishing, that it is a plugin, format it as blocks, in a polished and smooth way. But never change the editor, as was done with Guttemberg, terrible, horrible. And please keep this 1.x.x version only with security patches and fixes. CP is beautiful as it was conceived. I’ve already made a special backup with this version and the plugins to save. It’s amazing, it’s solid, it’s much better than WordPress. I have published articles about CP and compatible plugins on my websites. I wish you all the best and never let bloatware invade our panels! God bless you all!
