I thought CP1.x was going to maintain a commitment to security updates and backward compatibility, and that it would always be available for legacy sites that don’t want to update to CP2.x.
There are probably some CP1.x sites that I’ll never move to CP2.x, but for new development, I’d like the option for a new, improved editor.
There’s no issue with this in itself, as long as the work is actually completed.
There are a few key ClassicPress features that need to be successfully integrated first, for example, wpautop, galleries, embeds, and anything else based on the “media views” code. If these aren’t done correctly then very few people will be able to upgrade, or even to use that future version of CP with existing plugins.
This is probably 80% or more of the work of the editor upgrade project. So far, I see people completing the first 20% that is fun and exciting and shiny, and then not wanting to do the rest of the work to make it a polished, production-quality upgrade.
That’s fine, because some people are better at starting projects and some people are better at polishing and finishing them. It’s important to understand that distinction: shipping the editor upgrade in its current state would be a huge mistake – not as bad as WP forcing Gutenberg on everyone, because we at least have a backup plan in the form of long term support for v1.x – but at least the same category of mistake. It would be a shame to have forgotten that lesson after only a couple of years.
I’m not really sure how else to explain it. Moving forward is great, breaking stuff because “we have to move forward (regardless of the consequences)” is not. That is not a mindset that is compatible with successful maintenance of a widely used software project.
This should be a separate point: it doesn’t have much to do with technical debt or backwards compatibility. Adding new features usually does not break existing code or sites so it doesn’t cause as many problems. Adding features like search and replace (just to give one example that was suggested elsewhere) would be a nice, and fairly easy win.
Adding new features in a way that works reasonably well with the existing software is also often harder than expected, though: it took us multiple months and several tries to get to an implementation of the custom login image feature that we could actually ship.
A little context.
Here we are speaking of various “breaking”.
That is solved using V 1 as an entry point and then transitioning people to the V 2 and higher that includes some new stuff…
So, we certainly want to “break compatibility with WP” but we don’t want to break sites due to being in a rush to deliver something.
On this I agree with @james.
This doesn’t mean we can’t diverge from WP, this means that in doing so we should avoid delivering half-backed cakes.
And that we should prioritize the cakes that will be a great benefit for the users, like the editor upgrade.
Instead of arguing on the “let’s not diverge from WP too much” why don’t we try to agree that we need to make it happen the right way? As I see it, @anon71687268 was the lead for that effort, since he took it up and actually started working on it at least. Arguing on every little thing just to be devil’s advocate served only to make him feel his work was not valued and he moved out. Was this approach useful for the community? I think not.
As the lead for that particular effort, and since the effort needs some work on core to align to what V 5 of the editor relies on, who can be willing and skilled to cooperate with him to make things happen?
Considering that the editor goes in V 2 or above we can diverge from WP, since V 1 is the entry point for WP users and won’t change.
I think CodePotent was more than willing to bring the project to completion, but instead of finding people who where willing to help update core to align with the editor he found people telling him to “make it a plugin so we don’t need to change core to introduce it and people will have a choice” - when the choice is already there since it just takes to stay at V 1.
The thing is if done correctly, people will be able to have a V1 site updated to V2 without hassle. It’s coming from WP to V2 directly that is not advisable.
But that WP>CP 2 was never intended to be.
CP needs to have its own new smart features, different from WP. Certainly we recognize WP legacy, and we want to do something amazing using WP legacy, adding to it. And that is the meaning of a fork.
If we do things correctly, sites won’t break. And CP is going to have the new editor and much more.
But we need to stop fearing to advance, and we need to work in a way people know we won’t break the promise that we will be careful to introduce things that break sites.
None of it was fun and the discussions made it less so. And your jab here doesn’t go unnoticed – so, I’ll point out that I’ve started and finished many projects that the community continues to use every day. My not wanting to work on this has nothing to do with an inability to complete a project – I just had a different vision for the end result. It became clear that even adding a new button (like sub/super) was going to be an uphill battle, so, things like adding new features – I just didn’t have the energy for it.
This is a moot point; nobody considered this.
A quote from our main website:
Take one quick look at the ClassicPress admin dashboard and, if you’re a WordPress user, you’ll see something instantly familiar. That’s what our community wanted. Something that looks and works like their favorite CMS…but better.
This promise is not limited to version 1. And anyone who has made a careful and conscious choice to switch to CP knows that version 2 will introduce breaking changes. And I think that most CP users do expect to upgrade to version 2 when it becomes available, expecting not only the improvements, but that ClassicPress will still look and work like WordPress.
And if keeping this promise means being careful in how we make changes to the core, then that is what we should do.
I would like to note that this promise doesn’t emphasize CP differentiating itself from WP, but how similar the two are.
This is a major problem.
Out of grievance nothing good ever came.
I think we need to move on in this sense. Not forget he heritage, but forget that frustration. If we don’t, we will remain bitter forever.
I want to know what the community really thinks and feels about pushing progress for ClassicPress
As a community member (and since I am here, a very active one I dare to say), but not speaking for the community per se, I think we need to push - into the right direction!
That for me includes adding and polishing features, where it is possible without breaking existing things and where we have the people who can do it.
I don’t care if this is in v1 or v2.
As a matter of facts, I do not believe this community is able to maintain more than one main version, at a time.
And thus I believe very much v2 is something that we will see in a very, very far future and it will likely mean that either of (v1 or v2) will get neglected. I also very much hope actually we will never reach the breaking point because that will mean, all my website, all my plugins, all my code might just require a total rehab, and if then adapted to v2, would not work anymore on v1, and thus, I would either have to maintain 2 branches of my own code, to satisfy both worlds (heck - 3 branches, because I also have WP users).
On a sidenote, we literally barely can manage to maintain current v1.
Issues get filed and get solved not days, or weeks or months later, but years later. I mean - even if these issues are not actual anymore, they are still open - thus technically not solved.
The very least, these issues should get a status of “closed”.
We do not have time for that simple thing, but we expect to develop, maintain v2 along with v1?
Nota bene, I don’t think this is because the community is lazy or whatever.
It is because we lack the resources in terms of active, experienced users who are able to contribute (lets not forget that all work done in this project is for free and does not even increase ones “status” in the world of webmasters or programmers, like it does when you contribute to WP a lot)
Does anyone have some hidden resources that will make it possible to maintain 2 different CMS? Is anyone here even willing to do that? Writing documentation for 2 CMS? Keeping 2 CMS Code References up to date when we can’t even keep the current one updated, not to speak of non-existing documentation in relation to user guides? Our Directory featuring numerous probably broken plugins? Huh, translation, which has been “interrupted by a pandemic”, LOL!
All that, wont get easier with v2. Pandemic is still here. Next one is approaching, and if it is not a pandemic it will be a financial crisis or WW3.
Again, the real issue here is we simply do not have the resources to do all that. The facts speak for themselves.
For example, if you check votes on petitions, you will see that roughly always the same 10 people involve.
10 People. Not 100, not 1000, not 50k and surely not 50M.
WordPress has huge companies supporting it with what they call "five for the future. Some companies have their employees almost 100% focused on WP. I think the most focus we get on CP by the common user is “I have nothing to do right now, lets comment on some forum threads”. Certainly I did not yet see any company fully committing to CP, or any developer fully committing to it. It is simply not possible, because there is no cash in CP. No one will want his/her website built on a tool that still has its feet in moving sand. You literally have to “force CP down the clients throat” (sounds familiar?) to convince them to use it.
Because all of this, I am all in favour of keeping v1 forever, and polish it forever, actually.
There are literally thousands of things in current v1 that can be improved and would make it a much better and nicer tool.
This includes things like TinyMCE update, which I am absolutely sure it is possible to integrate it in a way that does not need you to create a new website to use it. I am very sure it is possible to integrate it in a way that even could stay in a v1 (non-breaking).
And it will probably not require much more effort than maintaining 2 versions of the same CMS (as v1 and v2 would basically be)
But there are also many, many other less significant things that can be improved in CP, which only surface when one actually uses the tool very deeply, codes with it daily, and gets annoyed daily on the tiny things, the little missing things that would be so nice to have, and would improve our CP by so much with very little maintenance effort and certainly without breaking any backwards compatibility.
I think, IMO, until we do not have a actual workforce that is able to maintain everything related to V1 (and that includes DOC, plugins, themes, PHP 8 compatibility, yada, yada, yada), we shouldn’t even spend time thinking about a v2 in terms of a breaking change, but only in terms of a update that might break some edge cases.
I totally agree with you… 
Thanks for this honest reply about where CP really stands. I have the general idea, of course, even before I switched, and your answer only confirms what I’ve been seeing.
I do want facts like these. When I write and try to convince people to give CP a chance, I want to be honest about the truth.
This sounds interesting. Why not? 
Dernerd said something similar about the community focusing on the platform’s stability.
I’m aware of this even from the beginning. I too of course wants my own websites built on solid ground. But given my skill level (and I tried out a few other platforms), the only real option for me was WordPress. However, I don’t really like the block editor, and I don’t like where WordPress is going, and so I switched to ClassicPress. Even with its uncertain future.
This is why I’m doing what I can to contribute to the community. I’m not a developer, but I can write, and thus this blog that I’m making about web publishing, which will feature ClassicPress, among a few other platforms.
This is a very real possibility, IMO. More reason then to focus our efforts in capitalizing CP’s similarities to WP.
Not intended as a jab, though I do admit to being a bit frustrated with what I see as you and others not giving due consideration to the experience of people who [have] maintain[ed] the core software, be it WordPress (our past) or ClassicPress (our present and future).
Personally I struggle with starting multi-contributor software projects, and I am much better at polishing and finishing them.
I’m very glad to hear this, because the discussions so far have had a very different tone!
And this is another very important issue to consider. How can we realistically expect to cram everything possible into version 2, and break compatibility in ways we aren’t even thinking about testing yet, and still maintain v1?
What would realistically happen is that nobody would use v2 – or – it would simply never ship. And if we were to somehow ship v2 without being careful about what should go into it and how the upgrade path should look, then we would lose all of the reputation that we’ve built up for being a stable alternative to WordPress that doesn’t break upon upgrades.
I’ve updated the ClassicPress | Stable. Lightweight. Instantly Familiar. page accordingly. As of now, we should all plan for v2 to include the integration with our plugin directory, and not much else in the way of major changes. If other big projects somehow become ready much more quickly than expected, then we can change that, but for now, this is the only realistic shot we have at shipping v2 in the next few months.
OK, this is a good explanation of the issues that I could not find in the earlier parts of the thread. But the issues sound like they can be resolved; why isn’t the focus on resolving them?
And, James, I think you violated your ‘criticize views not people’ directive here:
Me thinks we just need to prioritize.
If we don’t ship the directory first, there is little use in shipping the editor.
That’s because we have promised CP’s ecosystem way before evaluating the editor upgrade.
At the restaurant I get upset if people arrived after me get their meal with no wait, while I am made to wait countless minutes.
This doesn’t mean we should not work on the editor, certainly. It’s just a matter of doing things following an order and prioritizing what would make things easier for users (IMHO if directory is in place, there’s even the possibility that the editor will be worked on by more people and gets shipped before planned…).
I think also that trying to ship many things all at once is confusing for users, who will need to get used to them all at once.
And there is no problem IMHO in releasing the directory with V2, and in a short time coming out with a version 3 plan focused on the editor solely. I mean, we can use that idea also for marketing. Giving a “focus theme” to each main release.
So in the time between V2 and 3 that can be as long as needed, we will focus our marketing towards developers inviting them to distribute their plugins and themes through our directory. And when V3 is released we can focus on directing users to resources to learn to use the editor to the fullest. Maybe even with interviews to the devs that made the editor upgrade possible sharing the behind the scenes.
It’s not a race, it’s like stairs. One thing at the time. We aren’t WP, we do things carefully and every feature is shipped with love.
You are right, and I am sorry for this.
I hope what I wanted to say there can stand apart from the criticism: sometimes people naturally assume different roles in the lifecycle of a collaborative project. This is something I’m still discovering and evaluating myself, but for me it’s often more natural to finish and polish something than to start it, and so I would expect the same to be true of other people in different ways. Maybe that’s something that can help us move forward here.
I agree, and this also seems like a reasonable plan to me in terms of what I would expect to be ready when, from a technical perspective.
Yes, this is an important point. For example, I still have a problem with these sort of claims being made…
Improved Security
ClassicPress has a “security first” approach.
when a major security problem still exists. Shouldn’t fixing this take priority over any fancy new features?
One of the biggest things I love about ClassicPress is the community led directional choices that drive improvements. WordPress is an arena now where you get what you are given, and if you don’t like it you can try t find a plugin that delivers the features you want - like Classic Editor and Classic Widgets for example but there are other older examples - I had a custom plugin running on my sites that moulded WP to what I preferred.
On of the biggest things I hate about ClassicPress is the slow speed of development. That said, I have grown to understand this and accept it to a certain extent.
Have a look at the list of contributors to the last release of WordPress as compared to the list of contributors to the last release of ClassicPress.
Essentially, ClassicPress needs more help and loads and loads of it. Without that we can all have raised expectations but delivery against those expectations is going to fall short because the project needs a much greater number of developers to be actively working on the project.
It’s a catch-22 though, if the project stagnates then developers won’t join, but lack of developers means the project stagnates.
Yes. This is CP’s greatest strength, the “community led directional choices.”
True, one can indeed try to “mould WP” to what he wants it to be, but that is very much limited to developers, and ordinary users can’t do much about customization except to choose plugins and themes that fit their needs. And as we all know, even that freedom is continually being eroded as plugins and themes try to conform more and more to what WordPress wants them to be.
In ClassicPress, there is truly that sense of tangible stability in the air… 
From a user’s point of view, I think that ClassicPress is like a man trying to make a name for himself when his own father, WordPress, is ultra-famous. He is always overshadowed by his father’s success. True, there will always be expectations (they share the same genetic pool, after all), but his own unique qualities are overlooked. One thing we don’t want though is for ClassicPress to rebel and strive to become as different as his father as possible, and thus lose the strength he possesses: his heritage. If you have ever read the play-sequel to the books, think of Harry Potter and his rebel son, Albus Potter.
Metaphors aside, I think that this also has to do with a developer’s (or a company’s) own motivation. If you’re in it only for the money, then WP is your best bet. But if you’re the kind of person who fights for the things he believes in (even at the cost of an uncertain future and loss of a possible large income), then ClassicPress will appeal to you. And there’s nothing we can do about this, except to fight all the more eagerly for ClassicPress’ cause.
About 18 years ago WP was born as a fork of something else.
Yes, WP is a fork of b2 CMS.
Most likely it wasn’t famous from the start. It was born because someone (Matt) wanted something different.
Since history always repeats itself…
We are now what WP was at that point in time.
Same issues, a little number of developers, a legacy, people’s expectations.
But it was all solved by building a company (Automattic) around it to fund its efforts, so there was enough money to market it to people, to develop it and make it famous. Because it was developed to make money, money was invested in it from the start. That is why WP can change and upset all the people. It’s not an open source gift to people, developing it it’s an investment for Automattic, so it’s managed the Automattic’s way.
Now, in its early days when the founder (Scott) was still contributing, it was decided that having a company to make money to fund the project was a mistake, WP is not really free from the power dynamics coming from the money used to support it.
This means we have to slowly fight our way up to gain momentum, relying on donations and volunteer contributions.
This means we are REALLY community driven.
This means we are establishing our own way to grow.
It is not a catch-22. Because very slowly we are gaining users and someday the critical mass is going to be reached, and momentum gained.
It may be harder than what it was for WP, but we are getting there.
Another thing, WP was born to differ from b2, as we are born to differ from WP. There’s nothing of b2 legacy now in WP. I mean, maybe there’s some VERY OLD code. But the way b2 works is very different from WP, so we can say WP is totally its own thing.
With that I mean the real legacy shouldn’t be features, code, appearance… We should try to be what WP at a certain point failed to be because of the money power struggles.
Thanks for the history lesson…
You’ve openned up something I’ve also been meaning to ask. In other successful open source projects, we see at the bottom of their websites the logos, names, and links of their sponsors. I’m assuming that those sponsors have contributed resources to the project, and that they are getting something in return for their investments.
But ClassicPress is different, as you’ve just said. We are a non-profit organization, and a democracy. And so, what then can this project offer businesses & other organizations to gain their support? If it’s neither about influencing the project in some way, nor about direct profits from financial investments, what can ClassicPress offer them besides an excellent piece of software that is already free for everyone to use?
Personally, I primarily see ClassicPress as a cause. Something that you join and fight for because you believe in it.