Improving the Forum

[wadestriebel]

@timkaye

I often get an email with a link to a discussion. But if I click on it, and the discussion has been moved, I don’t find what I was expecting to find.

I disagree with this statement, and would love to see an example email that does this. Links are to specific posts, regardless of “where” they are

Regardless, to your point on splitting threads. I would hate to see what the forum would have become if I had not started to enforce stricter policies on splitting threads. Even just looking at the thread this was split from - in 50 posts what was accomplished? There were 5 different conversations happening all simultaneously and then some where getting frustrated when I didn’t reply to 1 of their specific points in one of their posts. How is that productive?

Regarding using ClassicPress. Yes, hypothetically, using ClassicPress would be ideal. But without a huge budget and unlimited work hours to reproduce what we already have here I don’t really see the point you are trying to hit there. That also ignores the enormous cost of moving at this point. We have what 2299 threads with an average of say 25 posts per thread? Beside that, moving the users (which we are already running into issues even moving the petition site…), plus the infrastructure we have built up around Discourse. All in all, realistically, yes in words that sounds simple but would be an undertaking that would divert most resources away from anything people really care about.

At the end of the day the forums is meant to support us building ClassicPress, not eat resources we don’t have.

[anon71687268]

Thanks for following up.

@timkaye

I think there has been too great a pursuit of topic purity. That’s fine when we are trying to make a decision on something specific. It’s generally counter-productive when it’s just a topic of discussion among community members, because it acts as a deterrent to discussion and participation.

These are opinions, not facts by which any specific action can be taken.

@timkaye

The most important criteria to me are those that draw new people to the ClassicPress project. The quality of the tools available to moderators comes way down the list.

I’m not convinced that having an old school forum is the right draw – we need actual sites, showcases, numbers to draw people in.

@timkaye

Much more important are ease of use to new visitors (which we have heard on many occasions is something on which Discourse fails) and the ability to show off what ClassicPress can do.

Conversely, we’ve also heard on many occasions that Discourse are “forums done right”. I’m curious to understand how many SMBs want or need a forum. I’m guessing the number is minimal.

@timkaye

So what do you consider to be the features that such a plugin should have?

I don’t have a definitive list and wasn’t intending to compare/contrast against your own; I was just trying to understand what you were specifically referring to.

[ozfiddler]

We seem to have different definitions of off-topic. I found nothing in that thread that was off-topic.

Wade said: “it was basically 5 different conversations all happening in one thread”, so I guess off-topic means off-conversation or off-subject.

Anyway, I was trying to find out more from MrLucky about his opinions and I had pinged him a few times to get some feedback. He will now come back and find the thread closed and I’m pretty sure he will give up on us. I’m also giving up on this topic/conversation/subject/whatever.

[anon71687268]

So, what I’ve gotten from all the discussion is that people want 2 things:

Easier Forums:
Likely, similar to what is installed at classicpress.club … If so, it can’t be overlooked that those forums haven’t drawn more than a few users and, indeed, they seem to have gone dormant. I believe this negates the ease of use argument.

No topic-splitting:
I’m happy to never split a topic again, if that is the majority desire. Of course, that will take us right back to square one in terms of threads meandering all over the place. If people are fine with diluted threads that scroll on forever, I’ll go along with it.

Still, the vast majority of users here don’t seem to have trouble with the interface or splitting; it’s been limited to a small handful of people…which, in my mind, doesn’t warrant overturning the whole cart.

[wadestriebel]

@ozfiddler

I found nothing in that thread that was off-topic.

That is what happens with broad overarching threads. Nothing can ever be off-topic, especially true with a thread that started as a question.

I mean even this thread, what is it trying to achieve? Is it to stop us from splitting threads, or to move to a new software? But it could also be to add support for gifs, or maybe allow signatures, maybe even a calendar, or what about a chat functionality - all of those fall under “improving the forum”.

[wadestriebel]

@ozfiddler

I’m also giving up on this topic/conversation/subject/whatever.

Me too, at the end of the day - we will work or continue to look at the 3 points I mentioned in the previous thread.

I have already begun working on new welcome thread wording; I will chat with the mods to see if there is anything else we can do to make the thread splitting less disorienting; and finally we will leave the discussion open about the layout (and I will include instructions on changing your layout in the new welcome message).

[ozfiddler]

@wadestriebel

That is what happens with broad overarching threads. Nothing can ever be off-topic, especially true with a thread that started as a question. I mean even this thread, what is it trying to achieve?

Hmmm, right. So, what you are saying is the forum shouldn’t be a place for general discussion about a broad subject. It should have a very specific topic (ideally not a question), a very specific response to that topic, close thread.

Wow. Not only do we have a different definition of “off-topic”, we even have a different definition of “forum”.

[wadestriebel]

I think you missed my point. I even posted a “broad” question the other day: Check in: How is everyone doing?

I am going to chalk this up to me being exhausted with my new job and apologize if I don’t see what you are trying to explain. I hope the steps I outlined above will help ease some of your concerns, and please don’t take my disagreement as me discouraging your input - by being questioned it allows us to iterate on what we have and make it better.

[james]

When we split threads it is because one or more replies verge off into a different topic than the original thread. The system always leaves links between the original and the split thread, and whenever we split threads we should also be sure that the new thread makes sense as a standalone item (i.e. re-post any missing context in the original post).

I’ve also seen the issues with notifications not linking to the new post correctly, this has been mildly annoying but personally it really hasn’t been that difficult for me to follow these. In any case fixing this behavior would be a good issue to raise with the Discourse project.

I’m fine with splitting threads less often, but I don’t agree that we should stop doing it. I would also suggest that users consider whether their reply is directly linked to the original topic of discussion, and if not, start a new thread (as you appear to have done here Tim).

Discourse is not perfect but it is where all of our users and content are. There are at least three additional criteria that should be present in any decision about switching to something else:

1. Maturity and level of active development of the software we choose. It’s a huge mistake to assume that we can build something better than Discourse, many thousands of hours (probably on the order of 100,000) have gone into its development so far.
2. Security and ease of hosting. The amount of confidence we can have in a software package in this area is closely tied to (1) in my experience.
3. Inertia - amount of work involved in any potential migration (user accounts, content (or suddenly having yet another repository of old/archived discussion content to keep track of)).

Given these criteria, my judgment as Infrastructure lead is that currently we cannot justify switching our forums to another platform.

I’m all for making tweaks that improve the first-time user experience, and finding better ways to explain how to use Discourse in prominent places. One simple idea I had was to make sure we have a good description for each category, and anyone can help with that by starting a new thread here in Meta.

@anon71687268

To me, if someone is going to be a moderator (of anything), they should take some initiative to learn the thing, regardless of the platform. In the case of Discourse, the docs are well-written and, while I’ve never sat down and read page-by-page, it’s a simple matter of Googling for anything unknown. Within a few days, moderation controls are easily discoverable and learnable.

I agree with this. Even as just a user of our forums, there are a lot of different things being discussed here, so it’s reasonable to expect people to take some time to explore and learn how things are organized.

[MrLucky]

@timkaye

Splitting forum topics. I am sorry to say this, but it’s more than a little ironic in a discussion about how to improve the forums for novices (and where someone points out how difficult it is to follow threads that have been split) that the thread was itself closed and people told to split it!

Yes, this really confused me. I was following that topic ( How to make the forum better for novices?)

and about to reply when I find it has been closed.

There is a final post saying: " I am closing this thread, but please feel free to continue the discussion by using the “Reply as linked thread” "

But no sign of how to do that. If you follow the link about “reply as linked thread” it shows a curly arrow, but that is not to be seen anywhere on the thread that was suddenly closed for no apparent reason.

Really, really annoying and confusing…

@timkaye

Use ClassicPress instead. While I understand why Discourse is used for the forums, I remain convinced it’s a big mistake.

I can certainly see the logic in this, presumably it would have to be one of the existing forum plugins, which are quite basic, but almost anything has to better than this!

[timkaye]

@wadestriebel

@timkaye

I often get an email with a link to a discussion. But if I click on it, and the discussion has been moved, I don’t find what I was expecting to find.

I disagree with this statement, and would love to see an example email that does this. Links are to specific posts, regardless of “where” they are

A case in point is the email which I received with a hyperlink to a post in the original thread. I clicked on it, and not only was the post not there, but the thread had been closed. (That’s what triggered me to start this thread.) But James has already confirmed that this happens. Unlike him, I don’t find it a mild irritant but extremely annoying.

@james

I would also suggest that users consider whether their reply is directly linked to the original topic of discussion, and if not, start a new thread (as you appear to have done here Tim).

There is no real way in Discourse to create a linked thread when the original thread has been closed. The only option is to start a new thread.

@anon71687268

Likely, similar to what is installed at classicpress.club … If so, it can’t be overlooked that those forums haven’t drawn more than a few users and, indeed, they seem to have gone dormant. I believe this negates the ease of use argument.

That’s a specious argument. People (including me) don’t go there because it’s not an official ClassicPress site.

@wadestriebel

I mean even this thread, what is it trying to achieve?

What’s that to you? That sort of question sounds more like one posed by a landlord than a moderator. I have never heard of a forum where each thread needs to start out by specifying its intended objectives.

It’s also a very odd question on its own terms. The best discussions in which I’m involved (on any subject) see others take the discussion in a direction I hadn’t anticipated. The idea of setting parameters at the outset for anything other then business meetings with a specific agenda sounds quite absurd.

@anon71687268

@timkaye

So what do you consider to be the features that such a plugin should have?

I don’t have a definitive list and wasn’t intending to compare/contrast against your own

That’s another oddity, because earlier you said:

@anon71687268

Capable, yes. Ideal, no.

You can’t speak of “ideals” without some criteria.

@james

There are at least three additional criteria that should be present in any decision about switching to something else

Thank you, James. Those criteria are perfectly valid. And you have stated them before. I just don’t agree that they are the most important criteria. Many thousands of hours have gone into Gutenberg, and I still wouldn’t use it. And, interestingly, both are JavaScript based (and my guess is that’s where the issues related to the temporary “losing” of things comes from).

ClassicPress can easily handle forums — and securely too. I have one site that’s had thousands of comments in the last five weeks, for example. At the same time, it’s been under regular attack from several botnets, but it hasn’t missed a beat.

But the biggest problem with those criteria — and, indeed, it’s the reason for the division of opinion here — is that they are set from the perspective of a developer/moderator. Those who are moderators want to be able to moderate. To me, though, that’s the tail wagging the dog. And, as a dog owner, that’s a concept with which I am very familiar.

I keep coming back to the fact that, for most people, the public face of ClassicPress is … Discourse. Go figure!

[james]

@timkaye

I just don’t agree that they are the most important criteria. Many thousands of hours have gone into Gutenberg, and I still wouldn’t use it.

This is true - thousands of development hours does not automatically mean that a piece of software is going to be good. However I’d argue that that kind of significant and active development is a necessary prerequisite for anything with any complexity, like a full-featured forum.

And, interestingly, both are JavaScript based (and my guess is that’s where the issues related to the temporary “losing” of things comes from).

I don’t think so, it’s just that the “topic splitting” feature needs to be integrated into the rest of the system so that notifications can also follow those links.

@timkaye

ClassicPress can easily handle forums — and securely too.

Defending from botnets is a bare minimum in terms of security, our standards for our official sites are much higher, as they should be.

@wadestriebel

I mean even this thread, what is it trying to achieve?

To give my perspective on this, I am not really OK with changing out the foundation of one of our most active community engagement channels, without a clear plan:

@timkaye

You can’t speak of “ideals” without some criteria.

So far we’ve identified one specific thing that we all agree would be a big improvement to the forums: get the bug fixed where split threads don’t redirect properly in notifications. That seems to be the most productive avenue of investigation that we’ve identified here, the rest seems to be basically “we should build something better / make fundamental changes” which in my opinion is not justified for multiple reasons that I’ve started to explain above.

@timkaye

But the biggest problem with those criteria — and, indeed, it’s the reason for the division of opinion here — is that they are set from the perspective of a developer/moderator. Those who are moderators want to be able to moderate. To me, though, that’s the tail wagging the dog. And, as a dog owner, that’s a concept with which I am very familiar.

The counterpoint to this, of course, is that someone has to do the work behind any such fundamental change. And trust me, it would be a huge amount of work to do something like this and not just end up in a worse (more confusing/fragmented) place than when we started.

[wadestriebel]

@wadestriebel

Over the last 12 months only 7 users have opened it.

Based on these stats, I have to ask, @timkaye, @MrLucky and @ozfiddler have you completed the basic user onboarding for Discourse?

I am genuinely interested in finding out, and if not:

• Why not?
• Was it just not clear we offered onboarding?
• What could we do to make onboarding more obvious?

Because, I am inclined to agree with Code Potent:

@anon71687268

In light of that “7 users” number, I strongly suspect that “usability” is merely a symptom, and not the underlying cause.

[Mark]

Following this discussion regarding improving the forum and new users.
I’ve just received the “Read the Guidelines” badge. Went back to my first email to find link.
BTW I am not a new user.
Out of curiosity if I want the “Certified” and “Licensed” badges where do I find the tutorials
The Read Guidelines badge has a link, but I can not see any others

[Aussie]

@anon71687268

Easier Forums:
Likely, similar to what is installed at classicpress.club … If so, it can’t be overlooked that those forums haven’t drawn more than a few users and, indeed, they seem to have gone dormant. I believe this negates the ease of use argument.

A lot of things have gone dormant this year, especially with the effects of the Coronavirus. John Overall is even considering shutting down his weekly podcasts at the end of this year, after nearly 500 weekly episodes.

Rearranging the deck chairs is probably not going to bring in a deluge of new forum members here. I think there is just not enough interest in WordPress/ClassicPress, as John is finding out himself.

Why, I don’t know. Whether it’s people using other platforms or they just don’t care enough to get involved is hard to tell.

[anon71687268]

Thanks for your thoughts, @Aussie.

When I mentioned the classicpress.club forums being dormant, I was referring to the last post being made nearly a year ago. Your blog still remains active. I suspect there was a desire for such forums, just not an actual need for them. Nonetheless, your effort is commendable and I hope it eventually does become well-trafficked.

Re: the podcast, it’s been in decline for a long time. If you look at the viewing stats, the vast majority of the videos get fewer than 25 views and, looking at the dates, you can see that is a very longstanding pattern. I can list at least 5 possible reasons for the low viewership without putting much thought into it, however, enumerating those things is not my intent here; the effort is commendable either way and I wish him the best.

[MrLucky]

@wadestriebel

Based on these stats, I have to ask, @timkaye, @MrLucky and @ozfiddler have you completed the basic user onboarding for Discourse?

Not that I’m aware of. Why would I? What is onboarding?

[anon71687268]

@MrLucky

Not that I’m aware of.

When you joined the forum, the very first message you got in your forum inbox was from @discobot. It contained an interactive tutorial that walked you through a whole series of forum tasks.

@MrLucky

Why would I?

Because it teaches you how to do a variety of basic forum tasks without having to read the manual.

@MrLucky

What is onboarding?

The process of bringing a new person up to speed with how things work. It’s a general term, not necessarily just a forums thing. For example, when you start a new job or hire a new employee, there’s usually an onboarding process.

[anon71687268]

@MrLucky, here’s how to access the interactive tutorials.

[MrLucky]

@anon71687268

Step 2 : Compose a new message to @discobot with any subject line…:

!!!

For the first time in my life I’m tempted to write WTF !

Discobot?