Is the roadmap still alive?

I agree, though I think while we get back into the swing of things monthly may be okay. I’ll do another Team Update in July and then we can discuss maybe every 2 months after that :slightly_smiling_face:

I agree, to be honest I thought it was understood but I think maybe it needs to be clearer. Having the Team Updates also gives a good way for the community to see if a committee member is actually worth their vote next time around - at the end of the day I still think a lot of this comes down to growing pains and we will figure it all out along the way :slightly_smiling_face:

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I think there is a number of reasons for this – some of it is perception, because it’s hard to notice progress when it’s not 100% visible. Some of it is inadequate communication.

Scott never wanted to be the figurehead, and when the Founding Committee started all of this in 2018, they all agreed that no one person should have all the power or be the figurehead. For better or worse, that’s the path that was chosen. There were very strong feelings that there should not be another MM situation… not even the vague whiff of it.

The website has gone through a few iterations at this point and each one has been an improvement on the last. Anyone in the CP Community who wants to suggest further updates and/or enhancements to the website is welcome to take that on.

I’m not sure how to get more clear than this… suggestions?

Perhaps. I’d prefer to see @james continue to drive the project forward, which leaves this to me, I suppose. I don’t spend time on Reddit but could set up a ClassicPress account; I just don’t want to see it become yet one more platform that needs to be managed when there are too few people to keep an eye on it.

I know for myself, I’ve had to really focus on keeping my business afloat. I’m trying to keep the lights on, here – not just for me, but for my clients as well.

@ozfiddler I am very sorry to hear you are considering alternatives and I hope that by trying to do better (via regular updates), we can win back your confidence.

I don’t disagree and can own that as team lead. I’ve said a number of times here on the forum and in Slack that I would welcome some help. Having team updates so that marketing actually has something new to talk about, will be helpful.

That said – that doesn’t negate the need for more help on the marketing side of things. There’s only so many hours in a day… and as Wade said, we are all volunteers.

I too was under the impression that it was understood by team leaders. However, I want to offer the benefit of the doubt and believe that the lack of communication has been much more to do with the world crisis at hand, rather than a lack of commitment or responsibility. Time will tell and certainly, Wade does have a point – if you’re not present and communicating; if you’re not pulling your weight and producing… then when it comes time to vote, the Community will take care of the issue. And there are no exceptions to that.

I will have a Reddit account set up before the end of the week and prepare a response. I can’t provide an answer to all of his comments but will do my best.

Thanks to all for your comments.

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A link to that thread has been posted on Reddit. Maybe there also needs to be a link to it in the Our History section on the About page on the website?

That’s a fair comment and I’m not trying to add to your burden but the Reddit post was brought to our attention and it seemed like it warranted a response of some sort. I agree that it shouldn’t just be your sole responsibility. Maybe we could assign a particular platform to interested members of the community?


On the subject of Reddit, a “Sun-Shiney” has posted a response. It rambles on a bit in a style that seems all too familiar, written by someone who seems to be fully aware of what’s been happening at CP and someone who is very pro-marketing. Someone who is probably very well known to these forums. And I suspect that the “one person” they refer to may well be one and the same.


I would just like to reiterate that anyone and everyone is free to comment on Reddit and elsewhere. If you want to add your voice, go ahead.

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Wasn’t me! :grin: On Reddit I’m u/zigpress. But their thoughts about herd behaviour (and reading between the lines, about momentum being self-perpetuating) are spot on.

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No, sorry. Should have further qualified my earlier comment by saying that it’s someone who is no longer active on these forums. Or at least, hasn’t been active for a while. That’s my theory anyway :slightly_smiling_face:

How about giving u/frogsgob some upvotes then? :wink:

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Free software is a participatory effort.

Many people in the ClassicPress community understand this very well, but one thing that is still lacking from my perspective as core/development lead is help from developers who understand how to code and deliver the features we need without breaking the existing ecosystem or otherwise damaging the ways users can use ClassicPress.

I had hoped that the release and maintenance of a stable version 1 would be enough to attract many more contributors of this type, but that hasn’t happened to the extent needed to implement our full roadmap.

Given the current situation, both with ClassicPress and the rest of the world, I will continue making progress on our outstanding items as I’m able. I do have a lot of other demands on my time these days, but in the meantime, ClassicPress is ready for production use and it will remain stable.

I know that not everyone in our community writes code, and that’s fine. There are many other ways to get involved and help ClassicPress keep growing. Here is just one example: Discussions: Should ClassicPress become involved?

As far as improvements to the site and the roadmap, we have also stated multiple times that any suggested revisions to documentation and other site content are welcome. I think it would be a good idea to make some of the pages on the main site available for revision under this system: Contributing to the ClassicPress documentation However, this is another thing that we’ve set up for contributors but has received very little traction from the community.

Finally, about the ClassicPress leadership structure, we had very good reasons for avoiding a “single figurehead” approach at the start of the project, and these reasons are still valid. There is definitely room for improvement here though. So far this year, the committee is not fulfilling the responsibilities that it has set out for itself. The committee hasn’t met since January, and in that meeting we approved some good rule changes for the management of the project, but no one has taken the initiative to document them publicly. Also, we have multiple teams which are not making progress on any of their stated goals or at least not communicating any progress. This suggests to me that we need to change our approach.

I’m also optimistic that regular updates from all team leads will begin to help improve this situation, and you can all expect one from me in the June updates thread by the end of this week.

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I’ve been thinking about this over the last few weeks/months. It seem to me that the original idea for ClassicPress was a noble plan, but there simply isn’t the necessary following and support that is needed for such an undertaking. I’m sure we are all aware of the constant requests for more help, more developers, more coders, more input, more everything. But it seems the same half dozen people end up doing all the work. And they are obviously getting stretched very thin.

It occurs to me that there are similarities with my clients when I design a website for them. They start with grandiose plans for lots of amazing features, but when they come to the reality of the work involved it rapidly prunes down to a few basics. Maybe ClassicPress needs to rationalise its approach as well. The roadmap seems to be more for Los Angeles, when we don’t even have enough workers for Outer Mongolia. If expectations are lowered then it may end up being more achievable.

I don’t know where this is all going any more. I do know I’m really happy with Classic Commerce and I want to use this well into the future. But I can’t see it being much more than a simple ecommerce solution that will have limited support for any “extras” in the way of the usual WooCommerce plugins and extensions.

Perhaps ClassicPress (and Classic Commerce) need to focus more on providing something like a basic “CMS framework” that developers can use to extend in any way they want. So it would be more like Perch, for those who know that CMS. I’m starting to think that trying to come up with some sort of parallel alternative to WordPress is like taking on Facebook. You can’t ever compete in that market, so it might be better to move in a different direction.

Sorry for the negativity, these are just random thoughts and probably not all that constructive.

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For me, ClassicPress has been a life saver, as WordPress digs itself a bigger and bigger hole. CP is stable, dependable and a reliable fork of classic WP.

I know CP will simply work for me and can use the majority of WP plugins. This is its biggest selling point.

However, it seems that issuing security patches is the only thing the CP core has done since its inception. To the general public, that would also appear to be the impression.

We have team members who are experts in the fields of programming, marketing and legal. But we do not have a charismatic person as the public face of CP. While I understand that was a deliberate choice, I think it is a mistake.

As much as Matt Mullenweg is despised by some, he is still the figurehead that represents WP. We need someone to promote CP to the world. That person needs to be at arm’s length from the day-to-day work going on behind the scenes. As such, they can concentrate on promotion, which CP sorely needs.

The last six months have been a trying time worldwide, stretching everyone’s workload. But if we don’t have the resources to move on to bigger and better things, then we need to focus on selling what we do have - a very good fork.

Scott used to talk about Gutenberg being the “Elephant in the room”. It still is and CP is still as necessary now as it was at the beginning. If we, as users, are becoming disillusioned, then how can we expect people to choose us over WP?

It is no good simply saying we don’t have the manpower, we need to capitalize on what we do have. We have the basis for a WP alternative. Let’s sell it for what it is - not what it may one day be.

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At this point I would probably rather live in Outer Mongolia than LA. Stability and quality of life. Extending that analogy to WordPress vs ClassicPress is an exercise left to the reader.

Perhaps ClassicPress (and Classic Commerce) need to focus more on providing something like a basic “CMS framework” that developers can use to extend in any way they want.

The simplest answer to this is “it already exists”, and many developers are already very familiar with that system. Custom post types, taxonomies, etc.

I’m open to trying this. I like the idea that this person would not determine the direction of ClassicPress by themselves. Who’s going to do it?

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This.

In fact this relates closely to a point in my opening post.

Also this.

Every day I am grateful for the existence of CP. The fact that it is not continually trying to reinvent itself is an absolute boon and saves me hours every week.

But it needs a lot of creative and charismatic PR and marketing to build momentum, and it sorely needs a plugin directory.

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Scott’s leadership, and subsequent departure, has been talked about a number of times in a number of different ways. It still gets spoken of:

Losing Scott left a hole that we still can’t seem to get past, so okay, maybe it’s time to look for someone new to fill the space. However…

Having someone new take on that role is more than just engaging creative and charismatic PR and marketing to build momentum. That’s part of it, of course, but it also requires true, genuine, and committed leadership. It needs to be someone who understands the project and the mission of CP, who is fast on their feet and has enough technical knowledge to field questions in an interview, and has both the charisma and leadership skills to be the face of CP to the world. This person needs to be able to graciously accept the praise when we get it, but also have the humility to admit when we’ve screwed up and make it right. They need to be even-tempered and not be triggered by the haters, and they need to keep their focus on properly/professionally representing CP at all times.

Perhaps most importantly of all, the role needs to be filled by someone that’s not going to leave the project. Or, at the very least, isn’t going to leave the project without someone to replace him/her long before they actually leave. What happened when we lost Scott was something I’d prefer to not see repeated again.

So – yes, I’m open to trying this, but with clear guidelines in place of what this person’s responsibilities are and where their role begins and ends. Personally, I see this role somewhat as one of “Executive Director”, but others may disagree.

All that said…

I agree with James. Who will take on this role?

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I have to have some very unpleasant dental work done in a couple of hours, but I wanted to reply to this while I can.

I’m glad both James and Michelle are open to the idea of having a person to promote CP. It would not be their role to steer the project in any way or to dictate to the team leaders how to do their job. It would purely be a PR role.

We need a spokesperson, someone who the public can relate to. Maybe we already have someone in our community who can fill that role. If not, we could reach out to the public, as with any other job application. We could also use a “Go Fund Me” type program to raise funds for PR work.

I am sure there is someone out there who can fill this role, someone with the passion and humility needed. It’s just a matter of tracking them down. The first step is to accept we need this, which I think we have agreed we do. How we go about finding them is merely a technicality.

I wish I had more time to spend on this reply, but I don’t at the moment. I just wanted to post it while I could.

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I’d agree. I also agree with pretty much everything in your “Having someone new” paragraph. That’s exactly the profile that the project needs to look for, in my opinion. Personally I don’t have anywhere near enough of those attributes but hopefully someone does.

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I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with the need for a figurehead at this stage but if we are going to go down that road, someone - anyone - needs to put together a list of potential candidates.

Who will take on this role?

The million dollar question. I don’t think there’s anyone in the community that could take on this role. Not because I don’t think there’s anyone capable. Just because no one has the time. We’re all stretched to breaking point as it is. So we’d almost certainly need to be looking for someone outside of the CP community imo and ideally someone already well known in the WP arena.

I’m also not sure about the “Executive Director” moniker as this may imply decision-making ability which some might see as conflicting with our core ethos. Might Managing Director be more appropriate?

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The best person for this role is ClassicPress v.2.

It means, attracting core developers is a crucial task.

For now, our difference is only democracy vs. dictatorship. But wait, who owns “Democratize publishing” idea?

Any successful marketing efforts should be backed by the bold product. Sad, but for now, the bold product is Gutenberg, not CP.

The only long-term REAL success for CP I see only by attracting new core developers. It is very hard task, but I think, it is crucial. And, maybe, it can be achieved only by personal “selling” the idea to come to us to someone we know. Even this is a very hard task - know from my own experience by unsuccessful attempts to persuade some really capable developers to contribute to the CP.

Spreading to the world about CP is a needed task, and can be improved a lot. But developing ClassicPress v.2 is crucial.

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This is great feedback. I agree that all of us here in the Community are already stretched too thin. But looking outside of the CP community for someone to be our spokesperson – on a volunteer basis – I’m not sure how attractive that could possibly sound to someone, especially if they’re already well known in the WP arena (and, yes, finding someone who is well known in WP circles is a good idea, IMO). We’re in need on an Influencer (or two, or 10). I also agree that Executive Director as a title may confuse people, but I think Managing Director also implies decision-maker… so that’ll need further thought to make sure we’re conveying the right message, and also that we’re being clear about the role they play in the organization.

We’ve had many conversations about this, and I agree with you – we need more core developers and they are difficult to come by. Personal relationships; one-to-one discussions to persuade developers to join us – these are the most effective ways to gain momentum.

Perhaps we should stop and ask ourselves why developers are not joining us, even when we have those discussions? Why are we not an attractive option that they’d want to get involved in?

Agreed. It’s difficult to market CP effectively in its current state, other than to say that it’s stable.

Personally, I’m a little concerned that as WP rolls forward (dragging themes and plugins with them) we may be in danger of losing our compatibility with those plugins and themes.

Having v2 would show tangible progress and prove our commitment to continuing to move forward. It would give us something to use to show potential developers that this project has a future and it’s worth getting involved in. However, there is a perceived lack of “leadership” in the public eye because there is no one person that people can identify as leading this project. This has been further exacerbated by our lack of communication during the COVID crisis.

I’m not sure what the right answers are, but I’m glad we’re having the discussion. Thanks to both of you.

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I’m more than a little concerned. I think it is inevitable. That’s why I’m starting to feel like it’s time for a major rethink about the whole project.

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I’m still off in la-la land after my visit to the dentist to have my remaining top teeth out. So not up to having any great debates.

The word “Director” is definitely not what we need. I think the word you’re looking for may be “Patron”. We don’t want them to necessarily create new code. There are team members for that.

As I said, we need someone to sell what we already have. One person that comes to mind is John Overall. He has the WP experience, reputation and contacts and already promotes CP every week on his podcast. It would be worth reaching out to him. He is right behind CP.

I’m sure there are plenty of others if we think about it. Let’s not turn this into a bigger issue than it needs to be.

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I have not posted much although I have been using Classicpress for all my sites for the last year or so. Please feel free to disregard this post if you don’t feel I am qualified to leap in at this stage :slight_smile:

I switched to Classicpress because I felt (and feel) that Gutenberg and block design are either a disastrous misstep, or a clever pivot into a different market. Either way they benefit Wordpress.com much more than they will ever benefit the designers making dynamic websites who have made Wordpress what it is.

Having said that I completely agree that ClassicPress does not need and executive director or anything like that. IMHO it needs an evangelist - someone who plays the same kind of role that Guy Kawasaki played thirty years ago for the Apple Macintosh. He used to see his job as bringing the Mac into every conversation, and that is what I think a Classicpress evangelist (or team of evangelists should be doing).

The main selling point Classicpress has is still what set it in motion in the first place. It does not have a block based design that encourages the end-user to reconfigure the site on the fly. Its strength is still that it enables designers to hand sites to clients, rather than pointing clients to a template on Wix or Wordpress.com. The evangelists need to spread this message. Articles on Medium explaining why block designs are a bad idea. Tweets advocating design principles. Not selling the hoped-for new features or what Classicpress might be in the future, but extolling the principles that differentiate it from Wordpress.

From that starting point “stable” is perfect. Classicpress is not dangerous. It won’t destroy your work or your client’s site. You can trust it. And you can trust where it intends going.

An evangelist should be abale to make a fair bit of noise around the design principles that power Classicpress without having to wait for splashy new features to arrive!

Just my 2 cents…
Owen

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Hello Owen

We’d be stupid to disregard posts such as yours. In fact, it’s great to see different names joining in discussions. I wish more members of the community would do the same. As we say on our website (and elsewhere) “Add your voice to the conversation!”.

You make many valid points and the evangelist approach is very much in tune with my own line of thinking. I also agree that the “Director” label should be avoided. I had previously considered “Patron” as suggested by @aussie, but in my experience of patrons, they don’t actually do anything and the word conjures up the wrong type of image for me.

But I do agree that what we need is someone who will, as you say, make some noise and as @aussie says, sell what we already have.

The only thing I would add is that anyone and everyone is welcome to make their own noise - and the more the merrier. Anyone is free to respond to threads on Twitter, Medium, Reddit and elsewhere. And in many ways, responses are often better coming from the community rather than someone “official”. You could also bring them to the attention of the community here.

But going back to the evangelist person (working title :wink:) if anyone has any ideas as to who would potentially make a good candidate, then it might be best to DM @BlueSkyPhoenix, @james and @wadestriebel …although they might have different thoughts.

Thanks for joining in Owen.

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